Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Entity (Micro/Small Stakes)

Awesome. Looking forward to watching this later today.

Time Link to 00:17:27

17:00 Minutes in
I'm finding more and more tags in the games I play are doing this now, 3-barreling w Ahi in position, I'm not always 100% sure if they're aiming to get me to fold Bp/AK/AQ or if they're going for the thinnest value, which vs me isn't terrible as I'm not scared to call down w Khi vs some people in some spots so whether they're lazily value bet/barreling w Ahi just going 'he calls down w K hi' or trying to push me off the bottom of my sd range or doing it for a mixture of the 2 I'm not sure but it really does put a lot of pressure on me with the bottom of my showdown range on some rivers so I'm wondering if it has merit.
I guess in steal situations vs these guys capable of 3 barreling A/K highs IP I've just got to generally SD w bottom pairs a lot more often and grit my teeth and call some horrible rivers. What do you think?
Would you do anything else like tighten/loosen up pre-f vs these guys or counter them in any other sort of a way?

Time Link to 00:04:50

I think players will take a FC on the KT9t board with a lot of te hands we beat, which is also a reaon I like the XR.

Time Link to 00:13:11

I typically just XC down to SD. The problem I have with the line Rob suggested is that most players I meet at 3/6 are actually good at v-bet thinly. Thus I expect a random player to bet 44 all streets for value. Also we induce that bluff if he has a busted draw. Can't remember now if we had reads?

Time Link to 00:35:33

What the *"#¤#¤ about not using PR on verey hand !

Good discussion on the K4 hand. I typically raise the turn rather than the flop, because I peel so many hands that needs some protection in my mind. I almost never do the wait until the river. However I don't think that is to my credit. I def see the merits of that line in this hand. I am at constant war with the thin value-bets.

Hey, I learned something !

Time Link to 00:38:12

About the A9o hand: The bt Sonia did this play vs me with ragged aces and small PP. I was thinking abut why and came to the same conclussion as Jeff did: These are the hands that benefits the most from making our opp play more straightforwadly. And some players (like myself in Sonias calculations) gets passifid by aggression.

I typically just XC down to SD. The problem I have with the line Rob suggested is that most players I meet at 3/6 are actually good at v-bet thinly. Thus I expect a random player to bet 44 all streets for value. Also we induce that bluff if he has a busted draw. Can't remember now if we had reads?

We thought he was slightly more passive pre but not uberpassive, that was really about it, definitely not an overall passive player though.

We can't really c/c to showdown given that we have the lead on the flop (betting flop is good IMO), but we can c/c turn and river which I think is the standard line, but there's something to be said for betting river after checking flop and turn as long as the river is in the range that I mentioned in the vid, I think.

Rob

We can't really c/c to showdown given that we have the lead on the flop (betting flop is good IMO),

yeah I meant after the flop

Time Link to 00:49:38

I think this K6 hands demonstrates a point that I've been trying to make: When there is a lot of concepts flying around, that points in different directions, it is super hard to find the best play through just discussion. Because how can we, using just words, estimate the value of hiting that 7 on the turn for our over all value of a peel for example? Something more is needed here !

Time Link to 00:54:15

I typically isolate with K9o from the CO. When I look at it slow-motion I see u mark fold even before the guy limps. I have no clue about reads but that is an open for me frequently.

Time Link to 00:58:11

A7o is also a standard open for me in the CO

I think this K6 hands demonstrates a point that I've been trying to make: When there is a lot of concepts flying around, that points in different directions, it is super hard to find the best play through just discussion. Because how can we, using just words, estimate the value of hiting that 7 on the turn for our over all value of a peel for example? Something more is needed here !

Well, the difficulty is that we're still going to argue even when PR comes into play, because we won't agree on ranges 100% of the time; PR is great for situations in which we can agree that a player will do X Y% of the time and Z Q% of the time, but in spots like this bringing another tool into the situation doesn't help us get much closer to the solution, as the core question is what he'll do with each portion of his range and how wide his range truly is, and generally speaking we're looking to play exploitatively more than unexploitably (IMO of course).

Rob

I think I agree with Rob about PR, it gets waaaay more complicated when we are unsure about what exactly his range is and how much of the time he does x,y or z.

Also just wanted to defend my point about raising the turn . The main reason I got the idea is because if we have the read that he is going to two-barrel too much of the time then we'll often need to be raising the turn as a bluff. In this hand it came to mind as I was thinking well we also need some made hands here as well and this might be a good opportunity. I don't hate raising the turn if it comes a blank with K high either, I mean I know everyone likes to say "showdown value" but I don't think it applies here cause we're never showing down K high UI.

We thought he was slightly more passive pre but not uberpassive, that was really about it, definitely not an overall passive player though.

We can't really c/c to showdown given that we have the lead on the flop (betting flop is good IMO), but we can c/c turn and river which I think is the standard line, but there's something to be said for betting river after checking flop and turn as long as the river is in the range that I mentioned in the vid, I think.

Rob

True, thus my intens research in other methods !

Time Link to 01:00:49

Here is a close spot and I'm certain now that I should have spoke up more about, hopefully I'll get better .

I think paying off this river is actually quite terrible. I don't think he is ever bluffing into two people on the turn.

Earlier we saw him fast play his draw right from the flop so I think this is a good counter-point, why now would he wait for the turn with a draw?

I understand b/c'ing with our draw but again I think paying off the river is a mistake

Time Link to 01:00:06

If u have a cold it's imoportant to not exercise. Doctor sushi recomends really fat food to mak sure ur body has eough juice to fight the bad guys!

I just want to warn from being too negative about GTO. I think darkhorse made an awesome post about it today that I'm just going to steal:

It´s a starting point. Knowing with what hands you would do what makes your game a lot more solid IMO. When starting to think like this and work like this I was suprised that my winrate was only strengthened, People started making curious folds leveling themself of what must have been made hands, so I would say.. never underestimate a villains propensity to find a fold (I know many say the opposite though) If you never make these plays how do you know villains are never folding?

And even if I don´t get the fold it´s allright. I´m doing it to balance my play as much as I can. Don´t mind it being a bit experimental/theoretical as long as my winrate is strong and I learn more about the game. Others just like to win the most possible right now. We should always keep in perspective that the reasons people play poker differs.

People often say that balance is the last thing to think about at the highest limits (do it at 300/600 with expert opponents only). I am of a different school. I think balance is the first thing to think about before stepping out trying to play exploitative. It´s the foundation. Learning to play defensively fist since it helps you to play the best exploitative poker in the future once you know your own and your villains thresholds.

One of my reasons to play poker is to know the game (come as close as I can to "solve" the game, yes I know it can´t be done but I can still make a run for it.) if that means taking a slighter less winrate now for a possible bigger return in my future then that is allright. And as I said... playing this way hasn´t hurt my winrate at all as I first would have thought.

This was a good video (and this time I'm being honest and won't squeak later on ). I think all u Dojo boys made a solid job. Jeff also played really well IMO, which I think made the vid more interesting.

If there is any interest I can do short 10-15min razor vids for one hand/week if u guys like it? Think of me as the armorer for the Dojo . If so u guys should decide on a hand and ship it to me. If not I will cry a little and try to find some other forms of entertainment.

This was a good video (and this time I'm being honest and won't squeak later on ). I think all u Dojo boys made a solid job. Jeff also played really well IMO, which I think made the vid more interesting.

If there is any interest I can do short 10-15min razor vids for one hand/week if u guys like it? Think of me as the armorer for the Dojo . If so u guys should decide on a hand and ship it to me. If not I will cry a little and try to find some other forms of entertainment.

Sushi how about you do the 99 hand, that I disagreed about, do the turn and river and do the options of hitting a 9 on the river and hitting a T

Sushi how about you do the 99 hand, that I disagreed about, do the turn and river and do the options of hitting a 9 on the river and hitting a T

Yeah this would be pretty good.

Rob

Here is a close spot and I'm certain now that I should have spoke up more about, hopefully I'll get better .

I think paying off this river is actually quite terrible. I don't think he is ever bluffing into two people on the turn.

Earlier we saw him fast play his draw right from the flop so I think this is a good counter-point, why now would he wait for the turn with a draw?

I understand b/c'ing with our draw but again I think paying off the river is a mistake

The main thing I'd disagree with is thinking "because he raised his draw on the flop last time, he'll raise the flop with a draw this time too" -- in fact, we notice that he flatted the flop with a very strong draw this time rather than raising, which in general gives us a feeling that he's capable of being aggressive selectively. To me, that doesn't say that he A) won't have a bluff here occasionally, and B) is incapable of valuebetting worse on the river. B) is pretty important I think as I'm sure he can have 98s, T8s, K8s here occasionally and play it like this, and while it's not in his range often enough for us to give more action, I think the combo of a hand like that as well as hands like ATss, KTss gives us enough equity to show down very unhappily on this river.

Rob

The main thing I'd disagree with is thinking "because he raised his draw on the flop last time, he'll raise the flop with a draw this time too" -- in fact, we notice that he flatted the flop with a very strong draw this time rather than raising, which in general gives us a feeling that he's capable of being aggressive selectively. To me, that doesn't say that he A) won't have a bluff here occasionally, and B) is incapable of valuebetting worse on the river. B) is pretty important I think as I'm sure he can have 98s, T8s, K8s here occasionally and play it like this, and while it's not in his range often enough for us to give more action, I think the combo of a hand like that as well as hands like ATss, KTss gives us enough equity to show down very unhappily on this river.

Rob

The only thing I can think of to say is, while thinking like that all the time might be detrimental it's certainly not a bad place to start. I mean we can only go off the reads that we have, which was he fast played a draw on the flop.

I'm for sure not disagreeing with the statement of "won't have a bluff occasionally" but when I look at all the factors A) he is raising into 2 people on a big bet street B) we have bet into 2 people again on the turn which makes our range look pretty showdown bound--- I just think that we can fold this hand.


Maybe it's just cause lately the talk about making big(ish) folds has come up and I've been looking for spots to do it more, so like these situations are some of the spots I've been analyzing a little more in-depth.

The only thing I can think of to say is, while thinking like that all the time might be detrimental it's certainly not a bad place to start. I mean we can only go off the reads that we have, which was he fast played a draw on the flop.

I'm for sure not disagreeing with the statement of "won't have a bluff occasionally" but when I look at all the factors A) he is raising into 2 people on a big bet street B) we have bet into 2 people again on the turn which makes our range look pretty showdown bound--- I just think that we can fold this hand.


Maybe it's just cause lately the talk about making big(ish) folds has come up and I've been looking for spots to do it more, so like these situations are some of the spots I've been analyzing a little more in-depth.

Big things to note, in terms of what we've observed that we should be taking away:

1) He's taken aggressive actions before in multiway pots.
2) The player OTB showed very little strength by calling the flop closing the action.
2a) Since OTB hasn't shown a great deal of strength, we can, to some extent, lower the "strength shown" by CO's turn raise, and can certainly include hands like 98s, even though it should be clear that we have a hand with showdown value. This is related to:
2b) Which says that when our handrange had a very high portion of showdown-related hands in the past, he continued to bet with Ace-high, which is too thin for value when playing exploitatively.

Basically just putting together a picture that while we're going to be behind a ton here, we aren't behind often enough, IMO, to be making big folds given the information we've received so far.

Rob

Big things to note, in terms of what we've observed that we should be taking away:

1) He's taken aggressive actions before in multiway pots.
2) The player OTB showed very little strength by calling the flop closing the action.
2a) Since OTB hasn't shown a great deal of strength, we can, to some extent, lower the "strength shown" by CO's turn raise, and can certainly include hands like 98s, even though it should be clear that we have a hand with showdown value. This is related to:
2b) Which says that when our handrange had a very high portion of showdown-related hands in the past, he continued to bet with Ace-high, which is too thin for value when playing exploitatively.

Basically just putting together a picture that while we're going to be behind a ton here, we aren't behind often enough, IMO, to be making big folds given the information we've received so far.

Rob

I definitely think you've come up with some great arguments, I think the biggest thing for me is that the raise is coming on the turn and not the flop

I guess that's why I think it makes it way way closer than the previous one (where I think he played his hand pretty well just trying to generate as much fold equity as possible by raising the flop and barreling in a spot where we lay down some A highs by the river)

If there is any interest I can do short 10-15min razor vids for one hand/week if u guys like it? Think of me as the armorer for the Dojo . If so u guys should decide on a hand and ship it to me.

This is awesome. Thank you, Peter.

This is awesome. Thank you, Peter.

Hehe basically it is of egoistic reasons. I am too lazy to do that much PR on my own so I need some kid of outer pressure .

I'll try the 99 hand. Just need some cam-key help from the Dojo master.

99: It's important that he didn't raise the flop. I would expect him to raise any 8 and any Q on the flop. Once he raises the J there are some Jx hands and T9 that constitutes the majority of his value range (I mean he could have 98, but I wouldget slightly suprised). I would assume he 3-bets AJ, but he may CC KJs, JT-9s. That's not a ton of combos. Considering any T,9 has a draw and as Rob said BTN seems weak, I think he has enough bluffs:value to call down here.

If there is any interest I can do short 10-15min razor vids for one hand/week if u guys like it? Think of me as the armorer for the Dojo . If so u guys should decide on a hand and ship it to me. If not I will cry a little and try to find some other forms of entertainment.

gogogo

Time Link to 00:54:17

K9 I'm isolating frequently.

As Sushi marked you click fold before he limps. BG do you not open K9 in the CO, if so why (because I know you have a reason for not doing it) ?

Very nice video series here, I think I get allot more out of this type of video then a regular old video and hope to see more in the future. Anyone who watches this should check out our Limit Holdem Leak buster's group and here is the plug.

http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/28-Secret-HQ/topics/27693-Sweat-Shop-LHE-Leakbuster?page=2&per_page=15

K9 I'm isolating frequently.

As Sushi marked you click fold before he limps. BG do you not open K9 in the CO, if so why (because I know you have a reason for not doing it) ?

I think K9o is marginal/losing from the CO at this table and rake. If GINGAVAAAA ol and enters the pot, he will give me trouble on the big streets. I shave off the bottom of my offsuit hands in these situations. As you saw, I mucked A7o in the CO earlier I believe with a troublesome BB.

I think K9o is marginal/losing from the CO at this table and rake. If GINGAVAAAA ol and enters the pot, he will give me trouble on the big streets. I shave off the bottom of my offsuit hands in these situations. As you saw, I mucked A7o in the CO earlier I believe with a troublesome BB.

Was the answer I thought

Very nice to see how you adjust to the table conditions.

About the A9o hand: The bt Sonia did this play vs me with ragged aces and small PP. I was thinking abut why and came to the same conclussion as Jeff did: These are the hands that benefits the most from making our opp play more straightforwadly. And some players (like myself in Sonias calculations) gets passifid by aggression.

sushi, is 'bt' your shorthand for "bot" or "bitch?"

I know that's not a typo.

Time Link to 00:44:54

K6o on the left. btw I'm commenting on the same hand as sushi, though his comment is 5 minutes later

If the guy is 2 barreling at a really high frequency then I understand what BusinessGypsy is saying about implied odds, but I think it's outweighed by the vast number of turn cards we're forced to fold on. I just don't think we're going to be able to realize enough of our K high best hand holding up UI equity. This is especially true with 2 cards to come - we just have to dodge so much.

Also, I feel the times when we spike a 6 and end up still losing to 8x and Tx really hurts us too. I'd be a lot happier if I had an overcard to 2nd pair.

The 99 hand was interesting, and I agree with bigbluffben1. A lot of my argument would be predicated on the earlier A9s hand and the fact that we're 3 ways on the turn here (as previously stated). If we are wrong here I think it's because we're making too many assumptions based off of the limited number of hands we've seen him play.

2b) Which says that when our handrange had a very high portion of showdown-related hands in the past, he continued to bet with Ace-high, which is too thin for value when playing exploitatively.

The A9s river bet struck me as more of a panic bet (what do I do? oh crap - guess I'll just hit this button) or a frustration bet from missing a coin flip (~15 outer with 2 cards to come).

Lastly, I wanted to make a general comment to the Dojo memebers:

I think this'll get worked out naturally as sessions go on, but please add your voice to the conversation! I really think the diversity of opinions and thought processes are what makes this format unique, so your contributions are essential.

For example, one of the best hands was the K4o where we flop trip kings and no fewer than 3 lines (raise flop, pop turn, wait for river) were advocated.

Oh, and here's some help for Rob - I couldn't figure out who was talking sometimes, but at some point in the video I realized that if someone asks about balance, it's Steve.

Great video so far.

J9s @ 4:30 (I'm also not sure how to include a timelink in my post)

Could someone here please explain to me villain's raise/call turn then fold river line? I tried to follow what you guys were saying about it but it didn't really click with me. Is he just trying to kick us off a better two pair or pair by representing the straight?

Great video so far.

J9s @ 4:30 (I'm also not sure how to include a timelink in my post)

Could someone here please explain to me villain's raise/call turn then fold river line? I tried to follow what you guys were saying about it but it didn't really click with me. Is he just trying to kick us off a better two pair or pair by representing the straight?

When you pause the video, you should have an option to comment from timeline. Just click that and it'll be saved in your post

also, yes I'm sure he was just bluffing with very little equity on a scary board

When you pause the video, you should have an option to comment from timeline. Just click that and it'll be saved in your post

also, yes I'm sure he was just bluffing with very little equity on a scary board

I think a bluff (with a flush draw most likley) is possible, he could also have gone for a thin raise for value with 2pr or a 1pr hand, decided he had enough outs to either counterfeit or boat up, then folded UI. #1 is more likely than #2 but both are possible.

Rob

Great video so far.

J9s @ 4:30 (I'm also not sure how to include a timelink in my post)

Could someone here please explain to me villain's raise/call turn then fold river line? I tried to follow what you guys were saying about it but it didn't really click with me. Is he just trying to kick us off a better two pair or pair by representing the straight?

Yeah agree with Rob,

Also Rob and BG (Jeff) talks about what they think he did it with in the video.

Yeah agree with Rob,

Also Rob and BG (Jeff) talks about what they think he did it with in the video.

Yeah, got it now. Being a .5/1 donk it's never a move I've encountered or considered so it peaked my curiosity.

Time Link to 00:25:23

I agree that this should be a bet/fold on the turn since the villian shouldn't be turning his showdownable draws into bluffs and is more likely to have a hand that beats us. However, if we Made the board TdJh4c5h I would think we should bet/call since we clearly have to bet for protection and value, but could easily be up against more bluffs.

Does this sound about right?