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Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Entity (High Stakes)

Just wanted to say thanks to Chris for joining us in this one -- we pretty much monopolized the discussion so it wasn't as much of a Dojo effort as usual, but I hope the experience turned out good for all of you guys.

Rob

Back up what Rob says, thanks for the opportunity guys and good action

We got SOME questions in right?? That's gotta be above expectation for when you two get started

Time Link to 00:04:27

Would you (DD) use the same SB strategy in a lower stakes game where the BB is much more passive but will call ATC? I play a lot live so playing the blinds seems crazy to begin with to most people.

Time Link to 00:05:16

<3 this so damn much. I believe there is a 2p2 article from MrWookie floating around the internet on the merits of simply completing the sb vs a competent bb.

Time Link to 00:16:31

i'm really having trouble following the logic of this turn checkraise. I know DD has given up using stats online and I don't see or hear any talk of particular notes on villain apart from "if he's super-aggro we would have heard from him by now". While I see how we get an extra bet out of 66-99 and the spazz argument is experiential, I'm rather confused why we don't just WA/WB with a very strong hand on this board.

Just wanted to say thanks to Chris for joining us in this one -- we pretty much monopolized the discussion so it wasn't as much of a Dojo effort as usual, but I hope the experience turned out good for all of you guys.

Rob

Sometimes it's even more helpful when the two of you "monopolize" the discussion. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who was quieter than normal simply b/c I was trying to write down as much as possible. Thanks again to Chris for jumping in there with us.

Time Link to 00:19:32

If you give this unknown player a wide 3bet range of something like {55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo} then our equity on this the Kc turn card is only 52.6%. Qc is about the same, and interestingly against that range the Jc would be the worst broadway we could see dropping our equity to under 50%.

If you make this guy's 3bet range something tighter (and I'm not really sure what to expect in this spot in a normal 15/30 game) then our equity suffers to the point of probably valuecutting ourselves on this turn card since he may fold the weakest part of his range and we'll get 3bet by the strongest part.

So I think this particular turn card is a c/c. The one problem is that on favorable river cards he could check behind his weaker ace highs, which is one problem a flop (or turn) c/r does eliminate. A river donk might do that too but it always seems so fishy that I don't do it that often... although it might not be terrible in this specific spot.

Time Link to 01:32:24

Remember to post the hand you guys are talking about here if you can find it please.

i'm really having trouble following the logic of this turn checkraise. I know DD has given up using stats online and I don't see or hear any talk of particular notes on villain apart from "if he's super-aggro we would have heard from him by now". While I see how we get an extra bet out of 66-99 and the spazz argument is experiential, I'm rather confused why we don't just WA/WB with a very strong hand on this board.

The biggest reason for this (and I'm not sure I 100% agree, but it's worth considering) is that people will bet-call down with AQ, but a reasonable portion of the time will bet with AQ/AJ and check if you call the turn. Since we're comparing calling down with checkraising, we need to consider the value we get from his worse Ace high hands compared to the value we get from them when we don't checkraise.

If you give this unknown player a wide 3bet range of something like {55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo}

I think that's too wide. Most players won't have K9s, KTs too often, KTo, KJo, QJo, A9o, or A7s/A8s as often, given the UTG vs. button dynamic.

My typical line would be to c/c and c/r most turns, but that specific turn is one that in the past, I would have just c/c'd, but it's interesting to see a good player c/r and I've still yet to do the math on realistic ranges to see what line looks best here -- there's some pretty big assumptions that we have to take here first. Definitely an interesting spot though.

Rob

Remember to post the hand you guys are talking about here if you can find it please.

Full Tilt Poker $15.00/$30.00 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 342533
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.667 SB) Hero is BB with 5 9
3 folds, BTN raises, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) 2 7 3 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls

Turn: (6 BB) 6 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, BTN calls, SB folds

River: (8 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN folds

Final Pot: 8 BB
Hero wins 7.9 BB
(Rake: $3.00)

Full Tilt Poker $15.00/$30.00 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 342533
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.667 SB) Hero is BB with 5 9
3 folds, BTN raises, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) 2 7 3 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls

Turn: (6 BB) 6 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, BTN calls, SB folds

River: (8 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN folds

Final Pot: 8 BB
Hero wins 7.9 BB
(Rake: $3.00)

Wow that's really interesting, if the SB folds the flop do you still take this line?

Wow that's really interesting, if the SB folds the flop do you still take this line?

I don't think SB is every folding flop.

ps - YAWN

Hey guys, I think this was the best episode yet. I feel like the Dojo as a whole has more experience and continuity at this point. It just seems like everyone is more comfortable speaking up, offering their thoughts, asking questions, etc., which is making for better content and more interesting conversations.

Minor technical request: is there some easy way for the sound levels to get evened out a bit? If DeathDonkey was 'normal' I'd say Entity was distinctly quiet, bigbluffben1 was loud, Boomer was louder, and rayzn_kayn was SUPER loud. I found myself continually fiddling with the volume as I watched.

And whoever was shuffling chips in the background...please don't next time.

Time Link to 00:56:41

I have a question about the K4o hand on the right (BvB IP on 653r).

Entity and DeathDonkey both talked a bit about how they'd fire the turn with a hand like 84, but want to check back with K4o. I'm wondering why this is. After the hand DD goes on to say he does NOT think K high has much showdown value in this particular spot, which in my mind makes it not entirely dissimilar from 84.

I can see that we expect to hold up more often when we spike our non-4 card, but this strikes me as a fairly small difference and I feel pretty good about either hand when I make top pair on the turn.

I can also see that if it gets checked down on turn AND river we will win much more often with K4 than 84. However I don't expect this action to occur very often. Maybe you do? Or maybe it's something else.

Hey Pygmy,

I think its more a discussion of balance. We jam the 84 because its an obvious draw with no showdown value, we probably wouldn't jam A4 because we don't get many better hands to fold, K4 is closer to A4 than it is to 84. So I'd say if you are just picking a part of your range to bluff with, it isn't the best type of hand. Exploitatively, its probably totally fine.

Hey Pygmy,

I think its more a discussion of balance. We jam the 84 because its an obvious draw with no showdown value, we probably wouldn't jam A4 because we don't get many better hands to fold, K4 is closer to A4 than it is to 84. So I'd say if you are just picking a part of your range to bluff with, it isn't the best type of hand. Exploitatively, its probably totally fine.

Ah, thanks - that makes sense. So you're saying that you'll have about the right balance if you semi-bluff and barrel with absolute hand strength of x and below (say maybe Q or J high) and not with better (even though they are about the same relative hand strength since we intend to not show down UI). Is this something you're choosing intuitively or do you have some sort of methodology for analyzing these types of spots?

Hey guys, I think this was the best episode yet. I feel like the Dojo as a whole has more experience and continuity at this point. It just seems like everyone is more comfortable speaking up, offering their thoughts, asking questions, etc., which is making for better content and more interesting conversations.

Minor technical request: is there some easy way for the sound levels to get evened out a bit? If DeathDonkey was 'normal' I'd say Entity was distinctly quiet, bigbluffben1 was loud, Boomer was louder, and rayzn_kayn was SUPER loud. I found myself continually fiddling with the volume as I watched.

And whoever was shuffling chips in the background...please don't next time.

Unfortunately we only have 2 channels to mix, so it's pretty tough to get everyone at the same volume level: we have the local audio stream (in this case me+DD, and Chris talks LOUD), and then we have everyone else via Skype. Normally it's me on local + everyone else on Skype, and it's pretty much impossible to individually master those as they all show up on the same channel. I'll tell people who are quiet to speak up more loudly in the future though, but the biggest issue that we run into is a variety of different setups for the recording (some people on mics, some on headsets, etc).

Dojo is a format that lends itself to tons of technical problems, but at the end of the day I think the experience and the content generated by it help it to trump any issues on the tech side.

Rob

Ah, thanks - that makes sense. So you're saying that you'll have about the right balance if you semi-bluff and barrel with absolute hand strength of x and below (say maybe Q or J high) and not with better (even though they are about the same relative hand strength since we intend to not show down UI). Is this something you're choosing intuitively or do you have some sort of methodology for analyzing these types of spots?

I would say I analyze them in real time by asking myself some fairly simple questions such as: "do I have enough equity to semibluff this hand?" if so, "do I have a complete lack of showdown value?" If that is a yes its a clearcut jam at some point, if the second answer is in between, I try to use other factors, such as recent history, his went to SD %, how tilted I am, etc. If its a clear no, I probably take a passive route. Obviously board texture makes it impossible to generalize this too much.

Time Link to 00:26:23

Before u say anything I def double barell. We have the nut low in our range. Villain can easily have Ax hands that should fold on that turn card.

Edit (after listening to discussion): I don't think KQc will be enough combos of bluffs to balance all our value bets: PP, Jx, 8x, 9x. KQ is basically the bluff we have. Also, like I said I think there are many players who XR many pairs on the flop and thus have a decent part of Ax hands that are willing to fold.

Time Link to 00:23:05

I could have called down in villains shoes with A7. I am covincd now that raising is better though . Stupid call down/bet when X to lines

Time Link to 00:51:24

That QJ on Q88: I typically play like DD suggest, that is calling down vs a XR. But I think Rob is making a good point and rI should consider raising more. Also I'm a bit worried that our value raising range will be too thin. Is this something to consider? Or doesn't it matter all that much?

Time Link to 01:07:49

Interesting that u say u fast play this board. Hmmm I am really passive on te flop in 3-bet pots. First I feel like I want to peel such a low board a lot. Therefore I also expect someone to barell the turn very frequently (or is ur point that there are too many scare cards that will stop the second barell?).

Anyway ur strategy of fastplaying is better for bluffs I think because it's easier to bluff if we have allready shown aggression before the scare card hits. I mean if the tun is a club and we raise, SB will put us on a naked club. However if we raise the flop and then a club hits it is much scarier. Does this make sense?

Would u give up this bluff if the turn is a K since now no better hands folds?

(When I say 'u' I mean DD, Entity + rest of dojo !!! )

Time Link to 01:00:33

I would pay off AJ there a ton if I was villain (QTo hand again). How bad is that? Do u guys fold the turn or the river?

Excellent vid! But please stop talking about those terrible TAGs that SD all the time. I get sooo offended .

Interesting that u say u fast play this board. Hmmm I am really passive on te flop in 3-bet pots. First I feel like I want to peel such a low board a lot. Therefore I also expect someone to barell the turn very frequently (or is ur point that there are too many scare cards that will stop the second barell?).

Anyway ur strategy of fastplaying is better for bluffs I think because it's easier to bluff if we have allready shown aggression before the scare card hits. I mean if the tun is a club and we raise, SB will put us on a naked club. However if we raise the flop and then a club hits it is much scarier. Does this make sense?

Would u give up this bluff if the turn is a K since now no better hands folds?

(When I say 'u' I mean DD, Entity + rest of dojo !!! )

I'd say I mix it up. This was a low card board but still kind of draw heavy, I want to fastplay from time to time, vs an expert that would mean I need to balance somewhat here. In this spot I just thought "gee there will be a lot of turn and river cards that will make him hate calling down with ace high" so I took a shot, I still think it was a small error.

I'd follow through on a turn king, hoping to triple barrel a scary river card, but I'd give up if it came like king, pair the board or something, and just see if QT high wins once in a blue moon.

I would pay off AJ there a ton if I was villain (QTo hand again). How bad is that? Do u guys fold the turn or the river?

The way this board came I'd probably pay it off too, if I folded it would be on the river. I guess I was more saying my play is sort of silly when many people aren't folding ace high even when the turn comes the ten and the river comes the 8