Poker Video: MTT/SNG by OMGClayDol (Mid Stakes)

Hi OMGClaydol

Enjoying your series and nice explanation of "stop & go".

I keep hearing ICM mentioned in MTT videos. Could you please tell me what it stands for ? Many thanks.

Time Link to 00:11:33

I would consider myself to be a very profitable MTT player, and I agree with you on a lot of the preflop shoving theory, especially with BvsB, but calling for a 3 way all in with 54 suited is OKAY(29% vs 2 randoms).. I think it is a much better decision to try to wait for a hand like K9+(keep in mind you have plenty of time to see a couple more hands ). Even if you WIN the 3 way all in with 54 suited, everyone sees it, people take notes, and your future fold equity goes WAY down because people think you are getting it in with any 2 cards. I think image is very valuable in these MTT, and the more pots you can take down without people seeing your cards, the more profitable you are going to be in the long run.

Time Link to 00:40:59

Another thing to try, with the stop n go, is instead of shoving is to try a small value looking bet on any flop, then based on his action (call or raise) you can take a much lower variance more informed(you have a better idea of what he could have), higher profit line on the turn and also the river. People like to call shoves a lot more then they like to call small milking looking bets.

Hi OMGClaydol

Enjoying your series and nice explanation of "stop & go".

I keep hearing ICM mentioned in MTT videos. Could you please tell me what it stands for ? Many thanks.

Hello Fantam, thanks for your comment and question. ICM stands for Independent Chip Model. It probably can be discussed and analysed in depth but for the 180s, there isn't too much that you need to know. I will explain all you need to know very shortly in one of the next two videos. Basically, because of the pay structure of most MTT, SnGs, etc, the expected value in terms of the number of chips you will gain or lose will not be exactly the same as your actual equity. IN a cash game, this however is the case. Since if a particular play is +EV by $2, then in the long term you are going to gain $2. Whereas in a 180, by risking your tournament life you might be losing money in the long run even though a particular move is going to gain you chips.... This is for a few reasons but the easiest to understand is simply because if you get eliminated, no matter how much equity you have, you will now get the prize money of whatever place you came. So if you are playing in a MTT, or a 180 man SNG specifically, and there are 3 players left, yourself with 1,000,000,000 chips, another player with 1,000,000,000 chips and a player with 1 single chip.. you go all in vs. the other big stack, lose then you bust 3rd, you will receive 3rd place prize money, even though your actual equity was much higher. So at certain times you will want to make a fold because when you're eliminated you lose a lot of equity, whereas if you call the additional chips you gain in the long run aren't actually necessarily going to affect your equity significantly enough to compensate..

Same thing if you are on the bubble, if you bust you get $0 regardless of your equity, whereas if you gain X number of chips your equity won't increase by as much etc.

I would consider myself to be a very profitable MTT player, and I agree with you on a lot of the preflop shoving theory, especially with BvsB, but calling for a 3 way all in with 54 suited is OKAY(29% vs 2 randoms).. I think it is a much better decision to try to wait for a hand like K9+(keep in mind you have plenty of time to see a couple more hands ). Even if you WIN the 3 way all in with 54 suited, everyone sees it, people take notes, and your future fold equity goes WAY down because people think you are getting it in with any 2 cards. I think image is very valuable in these MTT, and the more pots you can take down without people seeing your cards, the more profitable you are going to be in the long run.

The computer I am using right now unfortunately doesn't have poker software, such as Pokerstoe installed, so I can't check some equities out right now. However, when you have a very tiny stack (like 5 or less BBs, when there are antes) getting all in with an equity like 30%, or even less to nearly quadruple(4x) your stack is definitely a must. Not only is it true that it might not even be -cEV to get it in immediately, due to pot odds, but it's also true that like I said with this stack size you have little to no fold equity, and therefore our actual equity is less than it appears and taking a "chance" to get a bigger stack and gain not only chips, but a significant amount of fold equity is a must. You may be right that a hand like K9o has better equity than 65s, but I will check on that on Stove tonight/asap and get back to you on this. That being said I definitely don't think you can be too picky, and we aren't necessarily going to be able to fold and wait for a better hand because we pay an ante each hand, and also because it's specifically good when two players have already went all in, so we have a good opportunity to enter a multiway pot.

If we instead fold until we are UTG+1 or something, when we go all in maybe everyone else will fold, and only the BB will call and depending on the stack size this may be bad. The shorter you are, the more you want to enter a multi-way pot, since with say 5BB you may be able to get some fold equity, whereas 2-3BB, I would call hands like 54s+ every single time and be thrilled about it. We also may simply not get a better hand to shove/call with, and with this stack size we aren't in a position to risk that. If you make a call this short in late position and win, you'll get a nice shoving stack (like 8-14ish bbs) and in the next few hands be in positions like the BTN, CO, HJ etc which are going to on average result in profitable shoving spots..

The point of your image is kind of true, and I have talked about this matter in general but I think it is less important when you are short and calling a shove.. Even randoms kinda can see that your stack is so small so when you call with a tiny stack with something like a suited connector I don't think it will mean randoms will see this and then call you wider, subsequently, when/if you get a bigger stack and shove. If there is any effect at all, I am pretty confident it would be very marginal and that the slight effect this would have on your equity is far outweighed by making a good decision to get it in with the spots I said. A random will probably see you calling after "two big stacks already went in" (not understanding effective stacks that well, etc) with K9 etc not that different to 54s btw. Similarly you won't get the luxury of taking down pots without people seeing your cards with these stacks

I agree with your point about instead of just shoving the flop in a stop n go situation, to bet smaller and respond accordingly, sometimes bet/shoving the turn/river or sometimes -maybe- even folding etc.

Anyway thanks again for your comments and questions, please let me know if you have any more comments or questions to add - same goes to everyone else!

Time Link to 00:30:52

You are talking about picking up fold equity. What percentage of the time do you expect this to work? Especially in regards to the T9s hand, folding out hands like A3,A4,A5 on the KQ2r board?

>50? >60? >70%?

You are talking about picking up fold equity. What percentage of the time do you expect this to work? Especially in regards to the T9s hand, folding out hands like A3,A4,A5 on the KQ2r board?

>50? >60? >70%?

Overall not that often at all, but it doesn't need to work very often for it to be profitable since when we get all in pre-flop our equity is already not that bad. Vs. a 22% range (20% of stoves top 20 + all pps) 98s has 38% equity alreaedy, there is dead money etc. That being said you can just fold in the non "freeroll" spots. Also your specific example, depending on how much money is behind on the flop, I would imagine probably quite often since with no reads/reason to believe someone is doing it that light I can imagine those weak ax being an easy fold on kq2r vs. a random/unknown if they call and shove flop (unless it was very cheap to call)

Good vid. Thanks. I would have called with the 93s though, but I guess it's close to break even so, meh.

For future videos, can you try and cover your mic when you're coughing out your lung? Watched the video with headphones on and I can't tell you how annoying it gets.

Thanks

Hey sorry yeah I realised this may be a problem. I had/have a slight cold at the moment so hopefully it normally won't be an issue. If I have more time I will also try to edit some of the audio, as I did a bit for the previous video and especially the first. Will try make sure it's not an issue and if it comes up will try to edit the entire audio, or something

Hey sorry yeah I realised this may be a problem. I had/have a slight cold at the moment so hopefully it normally won't be an issue. If I have more time I will also try to edit some of the audio, as I did a bit for the previous video and especially the first. Will try make sure it's not an issue and if it comes up will try to edit the entire audio, or something

Yeah. Sounded really bad. Hope you get well soon. Played 70 tourneys at the $2.50 so far and I'm at -48.2% with 4 final tables so far. Swings are really something with this format. I guess mass grinding is the only option....

The variance is so massive, so even assuming you are winning then yeah that's very normal for that sample size. Also keep in mind obviously the lower your winrate (even if positive) the more likely you are to go on a downswing etc. But yeah thanks for the comments, best wishes and gl of course

Had to come brag. 3 wins 1 second and 1 fifth all in a 2 hour load at the 3.5R You really have opened up my shoving range a ton and just want to thank you for contributing to a new tv haha

Haha, very very nice man! Happy to hear it
Look out for the other episodes coming out which will hopefully further improve your game.. Notes, adjusting ranges based on reads/notes/etc on players behind us or players who already shoved etc as an example

thnx for this series, i always have problems with shoving. I usually wait for pairs Ax and K9+, thought that was pretty wide lol , obv. never stoved anything....

From now on ill be shoving ATC woohoo.

This is an awesome series and I love your detailed analysis of the hands and situations, but will you try not to burst my eardrums in future? I'll be needing those for your future vids

Also, was there a specific technique you used to drill your default ranges into your head because I'm struggling a bit with this at the minute and would love to hear suggestions on effective ways of doing this.

Thanks

Thanks for the comments Bonobo11
Yep pretty key to simply shove wide :3

BedSideCabinet, apologies again for the coughing through the video, again will try hard to make sure this isn't an issue in the future videos. Thanks for your comments.

In general, no, unfortunately. However, the more you play, the more experience you get and subsequently you should just get better overtime. I mean, at the same time you should/could be doing HH reviews (whether by yourself, or with a coach) and looking at spots, estimating ranges, then confirming either on a forum (like DC, 2p2) or using SNG wiz. This is very important if you are learning imo. Once you know the correct range in a spot, like we talked about in the videos and the whole series in general, these ranges adjust based on the variables. If your exact range in that spot should be AQo+ AJs+ 88+ (example only), then perhaps if the BB changed from a 12BB stack to a 6BB stack your range would be a little wider now and instead AJo ATs 77+ (again, example only). The more you play, and the more reviews/practice/study you do, the quicker and easier it will be to make such adjustments

Other than that, read on the forums, when other players post hands you don't need to necessarily reply, but certainly think to yourself what your range would be (and if need be, check it out - again with SNG wiz for e.g.) and do this a lot. Read these threads on DC and 2p2 whilst you're learning (and even after, from time to time) and you will just naturally get better.

Oh and I guess also look at some charts, since the charts help with a pure "default" range (which of course you can be a bit wider than since as explained players are calling on average tighter than equilibrium, so we should shove wider too)

This was really useful, thanks a lot!
Btw, only two episodes in but if you havent mentioned already I reckon its worth pointing out how playing within your bankroll makes the whole shove/fold process a lot easier - I guess this is the reason people play on ICM so heavily when it comes down to the final table of a MTT!

Haha yeah true if you aren't scared money you should have some benefits for sure!

Hi OMGClayDol,

Brilliant Work, Awesome, I lost my sleep, I will see all the other 5 Episodes tonight!

Thank you man!

Hi, OMGClaydol. Awesome series. I really learned a lot.

59:12 - Final table. You shove K5o 10.5bb's effective (accounting for antes) from the button. I put this into sngwiz and assigned 10% calling range to both sb and bb, and it says to shove 11% (66+, AT+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs). I thought 10% calling ranges for the sb and bb were very reasonable. What do you think are their calling ranges in that spot? Thanks.

Hey man, thanks for the compliments, appreciate them. Good work with testing the ranges, I mentioned in the comment section of one or two videos later that a lot of my final table ranges were way off because I disregarded icm way too much (although I still agree with the fact that we should push a bit wider than sng wizs model suggests due to a few various flaws of icm).. I think 10 is pretty reasonable although possibly on the slightly looser side, but yeah K5o is definitely a fold Will be releasing a new episode in the next few days to cover these final table errors , let me know if you have any other questions, peace and gl

1:02:45 - sb shoves 10bb into you. You said sngwiz says to call with only 5% if he shoves atc, and you thought that was ridiculous. I plugged it in, and it says to call 34.2% if he's on atc. Just FYI.

Haha yeah that sounds about right, I misread/misunderstood some of the stack size implications at the time Also he is unlikely shoving atc or close to atc, because of icm etc. In this particular spot I think 55 A8o A5s KQ KTs sounds about right to call although arguably is on the looser side.

I have been playing poker a LONG time and am fairly successful in MTT's and SnG's, just started playing the 180's so I thought I would watch your videos.

I have one small neg comment, you know your shit very well, but you repeat yourself a lot, I am not sure if it is intentional because you are wanting to make sure a newbie will catch on or if it is a habit.

Anyway, some great stuff in here, I just had to come comment becauase you did a FANTASTIC job explaining the "freeroll" Stop N Go, I thought I knew just about everything there was to know about tourney poker, but I had never seen that before.

I think you won me 600.00 tonight in the 3 rebuy... In this hand below I would shove this KQ 100% (I think there were 14 left at this point) and let the chips fall where they may, but I recognized that it was a possible freeroll SnG so I called and donk shipped... went on to win the tourney... Thank You very much for the little piece of info, its a little gem.

PokerStars Game #69040578598: Tournament #455478482, $3.19+$0.31 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (5000/10000) - 2011/10/15 23:25:00 MT [2011/10/16 1:25:00 ET]
Table '455478482 6' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Seferko (99101 in chips)
Seat 2: GolfNutz88 (89490 in chips)
Seat 3: zzaazz123 (79665 in chips)
Seat 4: Cykelmyg (219664 in chips)
Seat 6: Sculatu (97704 in chips)
Seat 8: OLDGOD--6-- (153029 in chips)
Seat 9: avagom8 (244347 in chips)
Seferko: posts the ante 1000
GolfNutz88: posts the ante 1000
zzaazz123: posts the ante 1000
Cykelmyg: posts the ante 1000
Sculatu: posts the ante 1000
OLDGOD--6--: posts the ante 1000
avagom8: posts the ante 1000
Seferko: posts small blind 5000
GolfNutz88: posts big blind 10000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GolfNutz88 [Ks Qd]
zzaazz123: folds
Cykelmyg: raises 20000 to 30000
Sculatu: folds
OLDGOD--6--: folds
avagom8: folds
Seferko: folds
GolfNutz88: calls 20000
*** FLOP *** [Jh 3d 8d]
GolfNutz88: bets 58490 and is all-in
Cykelmyg: folds
Uncalled bet (58490) returned to GolfNutz88
GolfNutz88 collected 72000 from pot
GolfNutz88: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 72000 | Rake 0
Board [Jh 3d 8d]
Seat 1: Seferko (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: GolfNutz88 (big blind) collected (72000)
Seat 3: zzaazz123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Cykelmyg folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Sculatu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: OLDGOD--6-- folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: avagom8 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Haha, thanks and good luck. Hope you continue to do well.
As for repetition, not sure. Haven't heard before, maybe it's a combination of habit and emphasis so players can remember it.

Hey, got a small question to stopn go plays. Do you really always call the flop against stopn go players in the blinds? Like if it were preflop 7BBs and you minraised, would you really call everything, also a hand like 98s or Tc9c on a AhKh7h board? I think in this case, you were already to far behind his stopn go range to call or how do you think about it? I think the lowest suited connectors of your range can sometimes be a fold, Ace high for sure never.

On the other side, how do you play against unknown, if you hit like Qc9h5s flop with pocket fives, do you still push or prefere, to slowplay, because most unknowns wouldnt know, that you tried to play a stopn go and cause of this would think, they can push the flop to get you to fold.

What do you think about this thoughts, do you think they can give you a little extra edge out of stopn go plays?

no definitely not, we definitely should be folding when we have little or no equity (or just not enough equity based on ranges/pot odds etc). and if you stop n go but hit the nuts you can definitely just check, that's fine

every time i try to stop n go i flop top pair.
i dont think stop n go is possible.

The Equilibrium Chart your talking about, is it the HU Nash Chart, or another one?

MTT, but it's pretty much useless, I should say this because everyone keeps asking for it - it's nash so it's ONLY optimal if ALL players are also playing nash which is NEVER true. Also it assumes equal stack sizes 100% and cEV 100% too.