Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by BigBadBabar (Micro/Small Stakes)

Time Link to 00:40:58

Not only a gutshot but a double gutshot. Plus overcard.

Time Link to 00:47:59

LOL at the butchering range discussion. Great vid, guys!

Not only a gutshot but a double gutshot. Plus overcard.

Oh crap. You're absolutely right - terrible fold by me on the turn, though I still think I should have folded the flop.

FWIW I have seen the checkback flop/raise turn as a bluff sooo often lately. I used to just level myself into figuring that they'd never bluff that way... but bad players just think about the game differently.

Of course they also do show up with top set and stuff too.

Time Link to 00:37:04

Let it go! Let it go! Let it go!

FWIW I have seen the checkback flop/raise turn as a bluff sooo often lately. I used to just level myself into figuring that they'd never bluff that way... but bad players just think about the game differently.

Of course they also do show up with top set and stuff too.

Kind of agree with this, though I don't know how these limits play. Sometimes it's a free showdown raise because they don't know what they are doing. Or a picked up draw. I do agree it's generally not a random 8 high hand taking this line.

Also, related to a different hand, I think overly tight players tend to 3barrel unimproved overcards more than you think, either because they don't really know what they are doing (as evidenced by how tight they are to begin with) or because they get positive reinforcement from the times that they do get folds (either thinking they are bluffing or just happy to win the pot and not realizing check/call is better if they have the best hand).

Let it go! Let it go! Let it go!

them, saw their show not to long ago, drummer is out of his mind

Let it go! Let it go! Let it go!

Had never heard of this band before but damn that's catchy/makes me want to DL their stuff.

Time Link to 00:00:14

What did you mean by "extended blind steal"? What is your reasoning for opening here?

Seriously guys, how can no one have said anything about the KTs hand at the end yet?

Seriously guys, how can no one have said anything about the KTs hand at the end yet?

You guys kinda got into every angle of it hehehe.

I gotta say Im kinda with pygmy on that hand though, theres so many turn cards we hate and very few we like. Albiet the metagame aspect is important too - just perhaps not at that level.

To me, and Im probably wrong, I think that flop hit villian hard, either he set up, had the FD or SD (I believe there was an SD on the flop).

The raise, call 3!, donk flop line is usually "I hits a set with my middle pockets or FD" in low stakes.

Seriously guys, how can no one have said anything about the KTs hand at the end yet?

i can't fold here. I would change my mind if you were to come up with a realistic range for this guy and stove it with numbers that lean toward a fold.

What did you mean by "extended blind steal"? What is your reasoning for opening here?

I think your time stamp is wrong.

I think I was talking about the table and the right, where I had several very tight players to my left. So by extended I basically mean I'm stealing from earlier and earlier positions since I think they'll fold so much.

bump

we're in atlantic city now guys but seem to have resolved the internet situation. so we can be all over this thread again imo.

I wanna be in AC too... and need to pay more attention to when people are going....

Im still actually pretty torn about the K10 play - I know I was kinda for fold, but I think in the situation I call.... weird.

About the KT hand:
Before listening to your discussion, it would not have occurred to me to fold this flop. 5 outs are enough to give us the right price for peeling. And there is the metagame problem of folding to a single donk-bet (which can mean a lot of things or nothing at all) on a low card flop after 3-betting. If folding is the right play here, I wonder if folding preflop is even better.

In combination with the 87s cap shortly after on the other table, my intuition was: Too loose pre, too tight post ;-)

Just a feeling that maybe wrong, and a case for pokerazor..
Nice vid!



About AC: What is the limit situation like? How many games at which stakes? Is it true that they are so much softer than online games? What's your typical BB/h? I'm wondering if it's worth making the trip sometime.

You guys kinda got into every angle of it hehehe.

Yeah that's fair, but even so I think more gusy should chime in with stuff like:

1) I agree with BBB - I think factors xyz are the predominant ones because of such and such...which indicates a fold

2) I agree with PH, but not for the reasons he states. I think we need to think about blah blah blah.

3) You are both idiots and Tommy Angelo is right. This is a close spot and we shouldn't even discuss it further. You are fools for spending 15 minutes of video on it.

4) Please focus more on telling us how to beat Rainbow Road. I think it's really critical to drift on the 4th curve.

About the KT hand:
Before listening to your discussion, it would not have occurred to me to fold this flop. 5 outs are enough to give us the right price for peeling. And there is the metagame problem of folding to a single donk-bet (which can mean a lot of things or nothing at all) on a low card flop after 3-betting. If folding is the right play here, I wonder if folding preflop is even better.

I know I covered my reasoning in the video so I don't want to go over it all here, but I would disagree that we have 5 weighted outs. And the meta consideration is pretty insignificant to me as my hand range will generally be very strong in this spot. I happen to have exactly one of my weakest hands here.

Also, you can't argue we should fold PF because we might fold to a donk on this flop texture. First off we don't know what the flop will be and secondly we don't know we're going to get donked into! Folding PF might be fine, but not for the reasons you state.

About AC: What is the limit situation like? How many games at which stakes? Is it true that they are so much softer than online games? What's your typical BB/h? I'm wondering if it's worth making the trip sometime.

Stan, the poker room director posts regular updates in this 2+2 thread. I met him the other day and he's a really nice guy.

Yes, they are WAY softer than online games. I don't have a large enough sample to know my win rate, but 1 BB/hour is generally regarded as excellent (at 30-35 hands per hour this translated to ~3 BB/100, which may make more sense to this particular audience).

if you can beat .5/1 or 1/2 online you can beat 10/20 or 20/40 live.

thanks for the info on AC guys, that sounds promising.

Sorry guys I'm just posting because I gotta give the stud player shout out in the thread.

Time Link to 00:53:40

I just started re-watching this video and wanted to play around with the KT hand. If you don't want to go back and watch, Pygmy 3bets an UTG open with KT, gets called, flop comes 865, and villain donks. Pygmy wants to fold. BBB wants to peel.

I gave villain a range of A8o, A9o, any reasonable two heart hands, 55-99. We have 19% equity on the flop against this range. On the turn, any non-heart K or T improves our equity to 64% and even the K and T brings us above 50%. So this does seem like a peel getting 8 to 1 on the flop just to hit our pair outs (and we can probably raise/fold a K or T).

Villain's flop range that you can plug into Stove/Equilab:

99-55,A9o-A8o,KhQh,AhJh,KhJh,QhJh,AhTh,KhTh,QhTh,JhTh,Ah9h,Ah8h,Ah7h

Time Link to 00:15:05

not a good iso, w/ the sb and bb likely to play with you. in my experience, there is not much fold equity

not a good iso, w/ the sb and bb likely to play with you. in my experience, there is not much fold equity

I disagree - it's five handed and I'm up against a poster who checked. I re-listened and noticed at the time I mentioned the likelihood of the blinds coming along and that how that makes it closer to a fold. But I'm still OTB and a superior player. That said, I don't think it'd be a huge deal to fold PF.

In any event I will say that I think BBB's post flop suggestion (to get the SB AI) is clearly incorrect.

I disagree - it's five handed and I'm up against a poster who checked. I re-listened and noticed at the time I mentioned the likelihood of the blinds coming along and that how that makes it closer to a fold. But I'm still OTB and a superior player. That said, I don't think it'd be a huge deal to fold PF.

In any event I will say that I think BBB's post flop suggestion (to get the SB AI) is clearly incorrect.

i see what you are saying, but i just feel w/ a hand like 10-8o and the likelihood of being in a multiway pot than not, you are losing more than winning in that situation. For me, it's a way easier fold than iso given those circumstances. And superior poker player or not, it's hard to do anything with an inferior hand against multiple inferior players who would be willing to look you up w/ third pair.

I do like the thinking of isoraising the poster, if the blinds are going to fold more than half the time.

Okay, I think we've congenially arrived at the agree to disagree point then. As I said, I think this is solidly enough in the gray area that I'm fine with you or anyone folding it instead.

This is more a philosophical point than an argument pertaining to this exact example, but I will say that in these sorts of close spots I often tend towards the more aggressive / involved action for a few reasons:

1) Given the stakes I was playing in this video I tend to give my opponents almost unlimited credit for being able to play absurdly badly. For example look at the poster who post/folds in this hand getting a nice price to close the PF action.

2) Kind of a 1b) type point here, but the fact that I already have the BTN and believe I am better than my opponents (and quite possibly much better) only amplifies the effects in point 1).

3) If I am making a near 0 EV decision often what I am doing is increasing my variance. However, the corollary to that that is often not said is that I am also often driving up my OPPONENT'S variance. I am comfortable with that, both mentally and financially. They might not be. Therefore I am applying a subtle form of pressure on them. In other words, I am opening up another area where I believe I can outperform my opponents.

4) Opting for the more aggressive line in this spot helps me form and propagate the type of image I want at the table.

5) And a special reason that really only pertains to some cases (like this one) - I think all DC coaches err on the side of involvement in these sorts of spots when they are recording as, let's face it, more interesting things can happen when I play than when I don't.

I like and Iso in that spot because of the dead money. It gives you a much better price to play the hand, plus the act of villain his post means he probably has a weaker than avg. range. You're not looking to have greater than 50% equity, really more like 40%+ when called and T8o seems good enough.

PH,

thanks for your response. The defense for your play is centered around the idea that since you are better -- better handreader, decisionmaker, etc, you are making a +ev play. And the fact that you have position makes this play all the better. I totally agree w/ you for the reasons you stated.

I come from a different perspective of someone who 10 tables .25-.50c 6max tables, and i've been in that situation a lot of times, but i haven't isoed as thin. I hesitate to iso those types of hands if i think there's more than a 50 percent chance of the blinds coming in b/c i feel like more than 88 percent (my standard cbetting %) of the time i have to check behind an ugly flop. Maybe i'm missing tons of value there, i don't know. I tend to err on the side of thinking that it gets expensive tryna barrel my way through a hand when most players at my stakes are calling stations.

However, put two tags in the blinds, and i will iso even 10-4s.

btw, if there's a way to filter my HEM to support my reasoning about iso-ing into loose blinds being a losing play, i'd like to see how i'm doin gin that area

Hi Distajo, I certainly do NOT think you're missing tons of value here. In fact given your situation (the number of tables you're playing) I feel the correct play for YOU is to fold.

I do not know of any way to filter HEM based on a player type. That's a neat idea, but it's probably pretty hard to implement.

this hand made me think about that 15:05 play lol

utg was 42/3
the blinds were 31/19 and 22/17, my HUD says they fold their blinds more than 50% of the time

don't know if u consider this spew, but i thought i played it the only way i could've won w/ 9-high

peeps can't fold 3rd pair, imo... that's not a bad thing though, but it's high variance

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 802664
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.4 SB) Hero is BTN with 9 7
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls

Flop: (5.4 SB) 3 6 J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls

Turn: (3.7 BB) Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls

River: (5.7 BB) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls

Final Pot: 7.7 BB
Hero shows 9 7 (high card Queen)
UTG shows K 8 (a pair of Eights)
UTG wins 7.4 BB
(Rake: $0.15)

Yeah I think PF is fine - frankly I'd rather have this than T8o. Post flop I think the 3 barrel is alright - we have the bare bottom of our range and have plenty of value hands on this particular board texture so bluffing seems okay.

I would have folded the KT-Hand either. I agree this could be a metagame problem if he tried this more often and we always fold. But we didn't see that so often, to think about a metagame problem here. I don't think he donks with "air" here. Though I'm not convinced of him having a flush, I think trips or some 2 pair combinations may in his range. Or some straightflushdraw combis. The thing is also if we really want to call it down, if he bets again on the river? There are a lot of hands we won't feel comfortable to see.
Even if we really think we have 6 good outs, we need a least 7:1, but we only get 4,x:1 (9,x:2). Don't we? And I don't think we have a ton of implied odds to our overcards here.