Poker Video: No Limit Hold'Em by surfdoc (Mid Stakes)

Time Link to 00:01:50

Wow,

Only 2 minutes in and already I couldn't disagree more. The guy open completes his SB. Check your databases and see how much money you make JUST by raising and taking it down a massive percentage of the time. If you don't then you'll have profitable cbet spots a lot of the time. No need to flop an A in a 2BB pot to make money here.

My raising range here will be VERY close to ATC and I'm definitely not gonna check an AX kinda hand and play a 2BB pot.

Time Link to 00:44:16

completing KJo after one limper.

I recently had a discussion with a buddy about these spots because he's a person who completes a ton of hands vs limpers. I was sure that this is an unprofitable play with most hands especially offsuit ones, but I was genuinely stunned when we checked his database and saw HOW MUCH he lost in these spots (hint: it was MASSIVE). It's beyond me why ppl put a ton of effort into playing no initiative-no position poker. I just don't get it.

I'm 100% with JK3A here. I don't even think twice in that spot. KJo is such an incredibly easy raise here.

completing KJo after one limper.

I recently had a discussion with a buddy about these spots because he's a person who completes a ton of hands vs limpers. I was sure that this is an unprofitable play with most hands especially offsuit ones, but I was genuinely stunned when we checked his database and saw HOW MUCH he lost in these spots (hint: it was MASSIVE).
I'm 100% with JK3A here. I don't even think twice in that spot. KJo is such an incredibly easy raise here.

lol, I might be leaking there too. How do you check that in your database? Is there a specific filter for completing in those spots?

discussion of that TT on K high is pretty good.

I always suspect everyone starts bluffing as well so I completely understand why surfdoc doesnt like to c/c c/f line, I always feel the same.

but if i think he starts bluffing then I should just call down.

Re: The QQ hand at the end.

3betting is def +ev for obvious reasons. 5bet jamming vs a tight 4betting range hovers around neutral EV depending on exact 5betting range and FE. I'm happy to do some math for those who would like to see it. Most utg tag openers don't have much of a calling range vs 3bets without the right history/player type which is why I prefer flatting in this scenario.

jk3a, that QQ hand, do you flat QQ in middle position as well?

if you are in Sb/Bb and it gets folded around, do you flat there as well and dont have a 3betting range ?

do you flat AA/KK/AK as well?

Time Link to 00:48:53

A couple of things...

Firstly, thanks a lot for this video. This is the first time in about 3 months that I feel I took something useful away from a DC vid, although admittedly I don't put a lot of effort into studying them.

About the timelink... neither of you mentioned anything about whether or not you would bet the turn with AJ which surprised me somewhat because I really think that the bet is bad. jk3a only mentioned that if you are going to bet, he likes the bet size that hero chose. My question is, would you bet this turn?

Personally, I don't think I would ever bet this turn against any player with AJ for the following reasons:
1) The amount of value that we can get is minimal at best. We chop with Ax, so there is no value there. 22 33 44 and 66-TT are not calling a bet anymore since the K rolled off. Villain could not have flopped tp+fd so the draws that he has are all weak and will almost always fold.

2)If he actually does have us beat then we save money since he can only get in one more street of value by betting the river, which imo is not a call 100% of the time after a turn check.

3) Any made hand that we beat that c/c's the turn is almost always going to c/c the river.

4) We get to induce from fd's gutshots that would fold to a turn bet.

Thoughts on the bet and my analysis would be appreciated.

Also, how can I get someone to review one of my videos like this?

Thanks again.

jk3a, that QQ hand, do you flat QQ in middle position as well?

if you are in Sb/Bb and it gets folded around, do you flat there as well and dont have a 3betting range ?

do you flat AA/KK/AK as well?

most of the time, most of the time/do have a 3betting range, sometimes

A couple of things...

Firstly, thanks a lot for this video. This is the first time in about 3 months that I feel I took something useful away from a DC vid, although admittedly I don't put a lot of effort into studying them.

About the timelink... neither of you mentioned anything about whether or not you would bet the turn with AJ which surprised me somewhat because I really think that the bet is bad. jk3a only mentioned that if you are going to bet, he likes the bet size that hero chose. My question is, would you bet this turn?

Personally, I don't think I would ever bet this turn against any player with AJ for the following reasons:
1) The amount of value that we can get is minimal at best. We chop with Ax, so there is no value there. 22 33 44 and 66-TT are not calling a bet anymore since the K rolled off. Villain could not have flopped tp+fd so the draws that he has are all weak and will almost always fold.

2)If he actually does have us beat then we save money since he can only get in one more street of value by betting the river, which imo is not a call 100% of the time after a turn check.

3) Any made hand that we beat that c/c's the turn is almost always going to c/c the river.

4) We get to induce from fd's gutshots that would fold to a turn bet.

Thoughts on the bet and my analysis would be appreciated.

Also, how can I get someone to review one of my videos like this?

Thanks again.

very std turn bet, def giving your villains too much credit

lots of these vids are taken from current students of the video maker and sometimes people about to start a series ask for volunteers in the forums.

most of the time, most of the time/do have a 3betting range, sometimes

if we are not 3betting QQ then our range for 3betting early/middle position open is AA/KK/AK? balanced by some air?

lol, I might be leaking there too. How do you check that in your database? Is there a specific filter for completing in those spots?

Now while I could certainly tell you the filters you need to apply to find out about your losses when you complete the SB, I think it's more beneficial for you if you find out about this yourself. And honestly... HEM filters aren't rocket science.

if we are not 3betting QQ then our range for 3betting early/middle position open is AA/KK/AK? balanced by some air?

If you're not 3betting much, like Scott, then yes.

Time Link to 00:56:45

On the KQ had, i know you described why you would lead the river but on such a dry flop your range for calling is Kx, QQ-99, 8x, 77 and 66's. But on the river you would never bet 77, 66, 8x, QQ or TT, so when you do lead then you almost always have Kx, 99 and JJ and villian can play perfectly against you. So wouldn't checking be more profitable since you can rep 77,66, 8x or TT by checking (even if its a tag) and villian could bet for thin value with a J or bluff since 77,66, and 8x is 4th pair and TT is 3 pair? Hopefully this makes since.

On the KQ had, i know you described why you would lead the river but on such a dry flop your range for calling is Kx, QQ-99, 8x, 77 and 66's. But on the river you would never bet 77, 66, 8x, QQ or TT, so when you do lead then you almost always have Kx, 99 and JJ and villian can play perfectly against you. So wouldn't checking be more profitable since you can rep 77,66, 8x or TT by checking (even if its a tag) and villian could bet for thin value with a J or bluff since 77,66, and 8x is 4th pair and TT is 3 pair? Hopefully this makes since.

Against really good tags that respect your game, checking becomes a much more viable option for the reasons you give. It can be/is generally better at higher stakes. At theses stakes, most tags are rarely bluffing the river and not value betting thinly.

Against really good tags that respect your game, checking becomes a much more viable option for the reasons you give. It can be/is generally better at higher stakes. At theses stakes, most tags are rarely bluffing the river and not value betting thinly.

So if we were in villians position and were checked to on river would you bluff in this spot even if it is c/b/c line?

So if we were in villians position and were checked to on river would you bluff in this spot even if it is c/b/c line?

not often

Time Link to 00:33:33

T9s hand. Any value in betting the turn vs villain's range, which includes a ton of gs straight draws?

yeah 109s
32.50 time stamp.
You were nattering about turn play gutshot combos - KQ,KJ,QJ 48 combos -
Where you thought you were missing one - obviously the extra 16 combos helps your bluffcatching argument.

i just checked my database (which i've had for only 50000 hands. when i completed small blind with limper(s) ahead (865 times at small stakes) i'm actually making 76 bb/100....when i raise (which i do with only "big" hands..129 times) i'm obviously making a lot more (548 bb/100) but i'd be curious to know what someone else's numbers are if they always raise in that situation.

btw, i really like the video and enjoy the byplay between the two coaches. it provides food for thought and perhaps a different perspective on many things.

The QQ hand at the end.

Ok given Heros Tight 3Betting image - you suggest flatting, can you answer two alternative scenarios?

(1) You have same villian stats betting action but it is early in a session - say first couple of BTNs and your first chance to 3Bet this villian. Do you still advocate flatting? If so, is it for the same reasons?

(2) There is a TAG sitting in the SB/BB and we have no long history with - but enough to know he is TAG that is not overly squeezey.
(a) He 3bets squeezes a similiar amount -
when UTG flats do we
(i) Backraise shove
(ii) Flat and quasi-set mine our QQ

When UTG then Folds
(i) Back raise 4bet
(ii) Back Raise shove
(iii) Quasi - set mine - sometimes get it in on favourable boards or with certain betting patterns
(iv) Fold !?!

Also, how can I get someone to review one of my videos like this?

Post it in the Member Videos Forum and you'll most likely get some reviewers!

T9s hand. Any value in betting the turn vs villain's range, which includes a ton of gs straight draws?

you can bet for protection, but I would guess that checking is higher ev

Great video guys , really enjoyed this one

The QQ hand at the end.

Ok given Heros Tight 3Betting image - you suggest flatting, can you answer two alternative scenarios?

(1) You have same villian stats betting action but it is early in a session - say first couple of BTNs and your first chance to 3Bet this villian. Do you still advocate flatting? If so, is it for the same reasons?

(2) There is a TAG sitting in the SB/BB and we have no long history with - but enough to know he is TAG that is not overly squeezey.
(a) He 3bets squeezes a similiar amount -
when UTG flats do we
(i) Backraise shove
(ii) Flat and quasi-set mine our QQ

When UTG then Folds
(i) Back raise 4bet
(ii) Back Raise shove
(iii) Quasi - set mine - sometimes get it in on favourable boards or with certain betting patterns
(iv) Fold !?!

1 - yes

2 - shoving most of the time in both cases

Props to Jk3a and Surfdoc, I really enjoyed this video. I really liked the back and forth dialogue discussing the preferred lines and got alot out of this. You both should really think about doing a full series along this style. The chemistry is really good.

Firstly, congratulations to Jared in this video for keeping his cool throughout what I consider a lip biting discussion.

I am a little unfamiliar with DC as a whole tbh, but hopefully surfdoc is not a representation on the quality of coaches on DC.

I believe this video would have been a lot better both in entertainment and learning material if surfdoc's voice was replaced by random gags from Peter Griffin and/or Stewie Griffin.

PATheDeuce hit the nail on the head...

Time Link to 00:32:15

and KJ!

and KJ!

thanks, knew i was forgetting something

I am a little unfamiliar with DC as a whole tbh, but hopefully surfdoc is not a representation on the quality of coaches on DC.

I ve taken coaching from 2 coaches here at DC and I d just like to say that so far that not the standard i ve experienced. They are very good at what they do.

Firstly, congratulations to Jared in this video for keeping his cool throughout what I consider a lip biting discussion.

I am a little unfamiliar with DC as a whole tbh, but hopefully surfdoc is not a representation on the quality of coaches on DC.

I believe this video would have been a lot better both in entertainment and learning material if surfdoc's voice was replaced by random gags from Peter Griffin and/or Stewie Griffin.

PATheDeuce hit the nail on the head...

Hey, I am sorry you feel that way. Perhaps it would be more be more productive if you point out the spots where my commentary was very incorrect so that we can discuss it.

Props to Jk3a and Surfdoc, I really enjoyed this video. I really liked the back and forth dialogue discussing the preferred lines and got alot out of this. You both should really think about doing a full series along this style. The chemistry is really good.

thanks. glad you enjoyed it.

I am a little unfamiliar with DC as a whole tbh, but hopefully surfdoc is not a representation on the quality of coaches on DC.

I believe this video would have been a lot better both in entertainment and learning material if surfdoc's voice was replaced by random gags from Peter Griffin and/or Stewie Griffin.

I dont understand this random hatred of Surfdoc
What exactly about his insight did you think was so bad? I think he had some interesting points to offer and often had to discuss some of the harder spots in the video and did so with good analysis?

you don't think he's DC material? based on one half-coached video? I think he proposed an interesting style of intelligent aggression based on hand ranging, and did pretty well being randomly quizzed lol.

Frankly i think Jk3a's arguments were sometimes less encompassing of the specific hands on a complete basis (or were less open to discussion). Though i did agree with him on a few points pretty heavily.

Overall I agree they made a good team for discussion because of their contrasting styles. I think Jk3a could stand to be a bit more open minded but other than that he seems like a good guy and has good insight.

I would be interested in a video with exclusively surfdoc just to see the different approaches he might have to 'standard' hands

Time Link to 00:05:30

What about cbet size that 885 board with KK. Would it be better to bet smaller like little more than half pot to dry board like that? We save ton of money times when we missed which will be most of the time and villain got us beat. In my experience smaller cbet doesn't induce more action and if it does you have to adjust for that.

Re: The QQ hand at the end.

3betting is def +ev for obvious reasons. 5bet jamming vs a tight 4betting range hovers around neutral EV depending on exact 5betting range and FE. I'm happy to do some math for those who would like to see it. Most utg tag openers don't have much of a calling range vs 3bets without the right history/player type which is why I prefer flatting in this scenario.

JK3a and surfdoc. First I just wanna say that your analysis of my play was really good and I enjoyed the back and forth discussion between the 2 of you about my play and some of the tougher situations.

Anyways, If I'm just flatting there pf w/QQ wht do you think is a good range for me to be 3 betting? Only AA and KK? AK? Air? One of the reasons I 3 bet and push with hands like QQ, AK is that even though they may be slightly negative ev in the situation where I get 4 bet, I feel it makes up for it when I get folds from 3 betting. It's prolly more neutral ev when you add in the $$ I win when I 3 bet and get folds, or they call and check fold the flop. I also feel like it makes me tougher to play against b/c I'm not 3 betting w/only AA and KK only.

Thoughts

Hey, I am sorry you feel that way. Perhaps it would be more be more productive if you point out the spots where my commentary was very incorrect so that we can discuss it.

You're correct, my comments were not helpful and a little mean.

I think you discuss some solid points but I didn't like the way you discussed some of your personal theory/strategy and passed it off as the normal, I just feel this could be misleading for players aspiring.

I don't have any specific spots to hand because I watched the video several days ago and I can't remember what I did this morning.

What about cbet size that 885 board with KK. Would it be better to bet smaller like little more than half pot to dry board like that? We save ton of money times when we missed which will be most of the time and villain got us beat. In my experience smaller cbet doesn't induce more action and if it does you have to adjust for that.

I generally bet about 22 there with my whole range 100bb deep.

JK3a and surfdoc. First I just wanna say that your analysis of my play was really good and I enjoyed the back and forth discussion between the 2 of you about my play and some of the tougher situations.

Anyways, If I'm just flatting there pf w/QQ wht do you think is a good range for me to be 3 betting? Only AA and KK? AK? Air? One of the reasons I 3 bet and push with hands like QQ, AK is that even though they may be slightly negative ev in the situation where I get 4 bet, I feel it makes up for it when I get folds from 3 betting. It's prolly more neutral ev when you add in the $$ I win when I 3 bet and get folds, or they call and check fold the flop. I also feel like it makes me tougher to play against b/c I'm not 3 betting w/only AA and KK only.

Thoughts

The combination of 3bet/felting is likely slightly +ev because of the amt of FE the 3bet carries. The 5bet jam itself is often times -ev. I can assure you that flatting carries a much higher overall EV assuming you do some awesome stuff postflop.

Remember that it's not important at all what your actual range is, only what people perceive it to be.

You're correct, my comments were not helpful and a little mean.

I think you discuss some solid points but I didn't like the way you discussed some of your personal theory/strategy and passed it off as the normal, I just feel this could be misleading for players aspiring.

I don't have any specific spots to hand because I watched the video several days ago and I can't remember what I did this morning.

I don't know how many poker training videos you have watched but I think the "personal theory/strategy" being passed off as standard or normal is a somewhat universal thing. Again, I am sorry if that is how this came across since that is actually the opposite of what I was trying to accomplish. I try to keep an open mind for out of the box thinking and try to be pretty clear when what I am saying is hypothetical and really only something to be considered rather than absolute fact. I am hopeful that this type of discussion will not cripple developing players but rather encourage their intellectual growth. As always, I accept that I could be wrong.

The math on the QQ hand is pretty easy with stove. Surfdoc is right about the 47%, but if just take away 3/6 JJ's and 4/12 AKo it falls to 42%. He'd have to be bluffing 1/3 to make it neutral EV, and given the lack of history that seems very unlikely. FWIW though it was 5 handed so a little closer than with 6.

I just wanted to weigh in and say that i'm very proud of jk3a. As a former student and one of my best friends, I think he's one of the best video creators on the internet. You guys should strive to streamline your thought process like his. Notice how he's constantly referencing the hand range, hand combinations and likelihood of various actions by both perspectives: math and experience. This is something you don't even get by "bigger names" and higher stakes players much of the time.

Frankly i think Jk3a's arguments were sometimes less encompassing of the specific hands on a complete basis (or were less open to discussion).

You must not have watched the same video that I watched. IMO jk3a analytically crushed donkeys and egos in one fell swoop in this video.

WoT

Time Link to 00:04:30

A9 on button. Shouldnt we isolate middle position limper, although he is shortie ?

Fully agree with WoT, jk3a is the absolute nuts. One of my very favourite video makers.

We just need to get him to make them more regularly!

A9 on button. Shouldnt we isolate middle position limper, although he is shortie ?

yes, most likely

Firstly, congratulations to Jared in this video for keeping his cool throughout what I consider a lip biting discussion.

I am a little unfamiliar with DC as a whole tbh, but hopefully surfdoc is not a representation on the quality of coaches on DC.

I believe this video would have been a lot better both in entertainment and learning material if surfdoc's voice was replaced by random gags from Peter Griffin and/or Stewie Griffin.

PATheDeuce hit the nail on the head...

First off, keep in Mind surfdoc has been a winning msnl players for years. In fact I would say he is one of the best hand readers I have played against. He plays more of a counter punching style than a lot of players I have played against which makes him trickier to read and if he wants to share some insight I would suggest listening to him. Additionally, if there is something you wanna discuss then be specific and lets see if we can't create some serious poker debate. As far as the Stewie Griffen comment, who wouldn't prefer listening to him do commentary? I think BLue Fire has already talked to him but you never know maybe Stew can do a guest vid here too.

I just wanted to weigh in and say that i'm very proud of jk3a. As a former student and one of my best friends, I think he's one of the best video creators on the internet. You guys should strive to streamline your thought process like his. Notice how he's constantly referencing the hand range, hand combinations and likelihood of various actions by both perspectives: math and experience. This is something you don't even get by "bigger names" and higher stakes players much of the time.



You must not have watched the same video that I watched. IMO jk3a analytically crushed donkeys and egos in one fell swoop in this video.

WoT

This is a great post and is soooooooooo true.

Jared has an absolutely brilliant poker mind and has that rarest of qualities to be able to play/think at a very high level but still break things down step by step for those who are less advanced. I honestly have no clue where I would be today, both in real life and with poker, without his coaching.

Get him his own series IMO.

Totally agree w/ WoT. Jk3a doesn't get nearly enough love. He's been my coach for over a year now and during that time has taken me from a 25nl spewtard to crushing 100nl and taking shots at 200nl. His analytical thought process mixed with clear explanation make him one of the best poker thinkers I've heard, and this video is just the latest example.

This vid was so sick. JK3A is honest to God one of the best vid makers on any training site(I have subs to DC, CR, Leggo and Bluefire).

Seriously DC, why doesn't he have his own series yet? Clearly six max NLHE has not been "solved" by any means. In fact, even in this hour long vid I think JK3A had a lot more to say than he actually did.

Give this man a series!

i second that.

jk3a is great!