Poker Video: Pot-Limit Omaha by n0whereman (Micro/Small Stakes)

First! lol enjoyed the first episode will watch this tonight.

Really good episode. I'm the typical holdem player dabbling in PLO and making just about every mistake you mentioned. I've been learning most of these lessons the hard way, so it's great to have them all summarized together like this. Also, I like the fact that you guys are organized and work well together and have clearly put some time into this.

I think a preflop HH review episode would be useful for sure, as long as you don't have to leave anything important out of the schedule to make room for it. If you guys have a planned schedule, maybe you could post it here and people can discuss it.

Stack sizes were mentioned a little bit in the vid, but if you get a chance could you comment a little more on how you play vs. shortstackers? Specifically, if a shortstacker opens in front of you, what kind of hands are you willing to 3bet him and get it in with and what kind of hands do you just fold? Would you ever flat in position (or even out of position and do a stop+go?) Also, if you get 3bet by a shorty, are you only calling it off with AAxx and suited non-ace broadways/rundowns?

I haven't played against these guys enough to have a good handle on their ranges like I do for the holdem shortstackers. As with holdem, I'm sure it varies a lot based on stakes; at the micros you have a lot of players that are just terrible but buy in short, I'm sure as you move up you get more that are actually playing a ss strategy.

Stack sizes were mentioned a little bit in the vid, but if you get a chance could you comment a little more on how you play vs. shortstackers? Specifically, if a shortstacker opens in front of you, what kind of hands are you willing to 3bet him and get it in with and what kind of hands do you just fold? Would you ever flat in position (or even out of position and do a stop+go?) Also, if you get 3bet by a shorty, are you only calling it off with AAxx and suited non-ace broadways/rundowns?

I haven't played against these guys enough to have a good handle on their ranges like I do for the holdem shortstackers. As with holdem, I'm sure it varies a lot based on stakes; at the micros you have a lot of players that are just terrible but buy in short, I'm sure as you move up you get more that are actually playing a ss strategy.

Hey Mog -

Thanks for checking out the series. In response to your question, against short stackers, I'm generally looking for AAxx KKxx and good rundowns to 3b get it in with. The reason for this is depending on a ss's opening range, KKxx and AAxx is more often than not a decent favorite, and good wraps are either dominating their worse rundowns or essentially flipping against overpairs, so you can't really go wrong with running it with these kinds of hands against short stackers.

My cold calling range depends on who's behind me. If I have nitty players behind me, I will have a more narrow range against a ss opener because my implied odds have decreased dramatically, because I'm playing in a HU pot with a player that doesn't have much money, and the players behind me are unlikely to put money into the pot unless they have a big hand. So basically most of the time facing an open from a ss, I'm either going to put it in or fold, but if there's bad players behind me who call very wide and who I'll have position on, I don't mind calling with a wider range to play pots with the weaker players behind me. You'll find that when you call an open, particularly at the lower stakes, it encourages other people to do the same, and they usually do it with very sub-par hands (even out of the blinds), which if you're playing the types of hands we outline in this series is a good thing for you.

In regards to your comment about the difference between ss's in NLHE and PLO, I'd say there's considerably more good ss's in NLHE than PLO. A correct and effective ss'ing PLO strategy doesn't seem to be discovered yet, and truthfully I haven't encountered a solid "pro shortstacker" at any limit so far, but I know there's many successful pro shorstacking NLHE players. What I'm trying to say is assume someone short stacking in a PLO 6max game as a weak player until proven otherwise; don't fall into the trap of dissecting their range and running yourself in circles. Keep it simple, run it with good rundowns and big pairs, and you'll definitely show profit in the long run. If you're running it against 20-40bb stacks, you'll certainly show profit in the long run, and it will be good for your image as well.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you need me to clarify.

John

Awesome series so far guys. You guys definitely have a strong dynamic going on and its helping the information come across really clearly.

I have some comments and questions about 4bet pots.

I've been involved in some multiway 4bet pots and I wonder how we should adjust our stack off range when this happens. We'll be getting better odds on the flop but our equity has to be diminished multiway as well. As an example: 100bb stacks; if we 3bet an open with like QJT8ss there is a cold 4bet and the original raiser flats the 4bet. Obviously we're calling, right? Flop comes Q42r.

As for 4betting wider than AAxx, what about when we're deep with an opponent. Like we're 200+bbs deep is it better or worse to be 4betting lighter here with like big suited rundowns and stuff? If we open from CO and BTN 3bets, if he has a fairly wide 3bet range and we're deep what about 4betting AQJTds or QJT9ds? Why or why not?

If we did try this what about 4betting to less than pot in case we get 5bet, with the same concept of 3betting smaller?

A correct and effective ss'ing PLO strategy doesn't seem to be discovered yet, and truthfully I haven't encountered a solid "pro shortstacker" at any limit so far

Here's some supporting evidence:

I just finished reading Slotboom's new book ("Secrets of Short-Handed Pot-Limit Omaha"). Slotboom describes how he made the transition from full ring to 6-max games, and he started out playing a 20 BB stack, then 40 BB, then full buy-in to gradually get used to shorthanded games.

He says that playing a 20 BB stack was not profitable for him. Given that he is a good full ring shortstacker (at least to my knowledge), this is certainly an indicator that shortstacking the 6-max games isn't lucrative.

Awsome serie! Keep em coming

Hope this helps. Let me know if you need me to clarify.

John

Thanks for the detailed response! That definitely helps.

One more random thought I had - what's your thought process regarding double-paired hands, e.g. KKJJ, 9977, 5544, etc.? Seems like unless you have at least single-suited most of these (non-broadways) are unplayable unless you're opening from the CO/BTN or if you can limp behind cheaply. You'd rather play them multiway because you're going to flop "polarized equity", right?

I've been playing $50 PLO recently so that my mistakes aren't too expensive as I learn the game. These games are filled with loose-passive guys that love to limp from all positions. I know you guys recommend playing super-tight from the SB but what range are you willing to complete with when it gets limped to you?

I've been playing $50 PLO recently so that my mistakes aren't too expensive as I learn the game. These games are filled with loose-passive guys that love to limp from all positions. I know you guys recommend playing super-tight from the SB but what range are you willing to complete with when it gets limped to you?

I'm just learning PLO as well (or at least, ive played it before, but this is the first time ive taken it seriously)
but i would say that with limpers I will comeplete any suited ace and any 3 card comboish hand with one gap or better... so like T872 with a suit or whatever, im completing... also TT+with nothing to go with or 99+with a suit/connecty card

it will depend a bit on the BB, but most BB are going to let us in super cheap and we just play fit or fold

Just wanted to say, awesome work so far on the series - very well presented and helping.

Trying to transition from PLO and PLO8 MTTs into cash, and really helping with the concepts.

Awesome series so far guys. You guys definitely have a strong dynamic going on and its helping the information come across really clearly.

I have some comments and questions about 4bet pots.

I've been involved in some multiway 4bet pots and I wonder how we should adjust our stack off range when this happens. We'll be getting better odds on the flop but our equity has to be diminished multiway as well. As an example: 100bb stacks; if we 3bet an open with like QJT8ss there is a cold 4bet and the original raiser flats the 4bet. Obviously we're calling, right? Flop comes Q42r.

As for 4betting wider than AAxx, what about when we're deep with an opponent. Like we're 200+bbs deep is it better or worse to be 4betting lighter here with like big suited rundowns and stuff? If we open from CO and BTN 3bets, if he has a fairly wide 3bet range and we're deep what about 4betting AQJTds or QJT9ds? Why or why not?

If we did try this what about 4betting to less than pot in case we get 5bet, with the same concept of 3betting smaller?

Hi Steve -

Thanks for the compliments, glad you're enjoying the series so far.

For your first question, I'd definitely call the 4b for a couple of reasons, particularly when I have a hand like that. Having a hand like QJT8ss makes a ton of good straights and is the kind of hand you want in a 3 way 4b pot because it plays so well into so many board textures, and you can set yourself up to scoop a large pot. In addition we have good relative position to the preflop raiser, so depending on how the flop rolls out, we'll get a ton of information about not only the strength of his hand, but also the strength of the original UTG opener as well. In a 4b pot though, most of the time if you get a decent piece there's enough money in there for you to call it off against likely AAxx. Obviously the simulations depend a little on what the original raisers opening range is, but since he opened in EP I gave him the holdings of a standard players 4b calling range imo. I thought you might find it educational to see what our situation looked like PF.

Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QcJcT8 27.13% 157,249 11,097
MMMM 22.79% 131,636 10,204
AA** 50.08% 299,610 1,755


Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QcJcT8 28.26% 162,823 13,553
BBBB 21.41% 112,335 32,250
AA** 50.33% 291,611 20,760

As for your second question, it really depends on what kind of opponent I'm playing. I'll definitely 4b hands like that sometimes, but I need to be sure that he really is 3b'ing me light, and that he'll call us when we dominate his rundowns. When you do 4b with hands like QJT9, make sure you cb A high boards all the time.

For the third question, I would never 4b less than pot basically because I usually have a pretty good idea of an opponents 3b'ing range before I decide to 4b him with Non AAxx hands, so it's not very often I'm concerned with the price I'm being offered on a 5b; by that time, there's going to be enough money in the pot, so I'm prepared to get it in regardless for the most part. Making a 4b kind of carries this risk, but you kind of accept that risk if you're deciding to 4b someone in the first place. 4b'ing small also wouldn't provide me any more information about their range than just calling a 3b would; he obviously would never fold any hand he's 3'ingb me with to a small 4b, so it doesn't give me any additional information.

Thanks for the detailed response! That definitely helps.

One more random thought I had - what's your thought process regarding double-paired hands, e.g. KKJJ, 9977, 5544, etc.? Seems like unless you have at least single-suited most of these (non-broadways) are unplayable unless you're opening from the CO/BTN or if you can limp behind cheaply. You'd rather play them multiway because you're going to flop "polarized equity", right?

Hi Mog -

The value of your double paired hands is correlated with the ranking of its pairs. Lower double paired hands don't have a ton of value in EP, but for the most part players who have good hand reading skills play them effectively because they're good at knowing when their sets have value (even bottoms ones), and they don't lose much when they flop a set but wisely fold when it's obvious they're beat.

The closer the double pairs are to each other makes a big difference as well. JJTT or KKQQ are considerably more valuable because they can make good straights as well as high sets, so you can really hammer some flops, in addition to having value as overpairs and flopping top set more often than the lower double paired hands. Premium double paired hands can also be deceptive when you 3b with them against aggressive opponents, because most people be rundowns and AAxx hands, but not double paired hands. In addition, you can rep A high boards as a cb bluff if you 3b them OOP.

I've been playing $50 PLO recently so that my mistakes aren't too expensive as I learn the game. These games are filled with loose-passive guys that love to limp from all positions. I know you guys recommend playing super-tight from the SB but what range are you willing to complete with when it gets limped to you?

It depends on the nut making value of my hand for the most part. Generally you don't want to be completing with hands that have reverse implied odds, which most of them are. Think about what you're trying to accomplish in the long run. Let's take a moment and think about it.

Let's assume two people have limped, and the action is to you with a hand like 2334. If you complete, you'll flop the nuts once in awhile, but otherwise you'll basically always be check folding. Even when you flop the nuts, you probably won't get paid because people don't generally play low carded hands, so when you make the nuts, you won't be overnutting people or making hands where people generally tend to put tons of money in the pot. In other instances, you might flop bottom set, but have to fold if you get some action.

Basically what I'm trying to say is objectively pay attention to the value of your hand in a 4 way pot. Play hands that can make nut hands, since making money in 4 way pots is reliant on the actual value of your hand, rather than the actual line you end up taking. Complete high paired hands and any suited ace, but for the most part you can generally play pretty tight from the SB without giving up too much overall.

Also it depends a little on table dynamics. I'll widen my completing range if the table is super loose and will call large amounts when I make hands, but if people are nitty postflop then the implied odds aren't nearly as good since you don't bluff steal as many pots OOP in MW pots.

Just wanted to say, awesome work so far on the series - very well presented and helping.

Trying to transition from PLO and PLO8 MTTs into cash, and really helping with the concepts.

Thanks!

Any chance you could use a coloured background for your slides instead of the bright white?

plz stop spell checking in power points ^^ pretty basic one... avoids the red underlines

Whens the next one out

Whens the next one out

A few hours

I don't know if this has been asked -- could you provide a link to the power points?

Time Link to 00:29:48

When playing in a weak game with a lot of limpers. Are you limping junky QQxx or JJxx from UTG anticipating a MW Pot or just dumping them? How about junky KKxx, limp from UTG in a weak game looking to overset someone?

Really enjoying the series

When playing in a weak game with a lot of limpers. Are you limping junky QQxx or JJxx from UTG anticipating a MW Pot or just dumping them? How about junky KKxx, limp from UTG in a weak game looking to overset someone?

Really enjoying the series

Hi TF -

I'm glad you're enjoying the series so far. In regards to your question, I'm never limping UTG with junky JJxx or QQxx hands pretty much ever for a couple of different reasons. First, flopping a set in PLO isn't as much of an equity lock as it is in other variations of poker like NLHE. As you begin to get your feet wet playing PLO, you'll quickly notice that sets frequently lose at showdown, so limping with the intention of flopping a set and winning a big MW pot isn't a very effective strategy. More often than not, you'll limp with JJxx and QQxx, only to find that someone behind you raises and you'll feel yourself "priced in" to see a flop, and then c/f'ing almost any board texture that you don't flop a set on. This is a big leak of many players, and will damage your long term win rate. In addition, a set of Jacks or Queens can easily be oversetted in PLO, which is obviously a bad result for us as well.

Whether or not I play junky KKxx UTG depends greatly on how weak the game I'm playing in is. Normally I fold junky KKxx UTG, but if I'm confident I'll be able to profitably play postflop against my opponents, or I'll get paid in a big way when I flop top set, then I can see an argument for playing it. The problem is that when KKxx doesn't flop a set, it has pretty terrible playability postflop. Moreover, if there's aggressive 3b'ers behind you, calling a 3b becomes pretty miserable as well. In general, I'm not a huge advocate of making limping UTG a big piece of your game unless you're getting 3b relentlessly from players and you have a hand you really want to see a flop with in a very loose/aggressive game (which isn't the case most of the time at the low/micros, since most of the games are pretty passive). Plus, the overall goal for most of the people playing the micros is to move up in limits, and as you move up, the better players will make your life miserable if you're limping from UTG/EP too much, and as a result you wont' be at the new stake for very long. More simply, limping at the low/micros encourages others to limp too, but when you move up, limping encourages people to isolate you wider.

Hopefully this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.


John

Time Link to 00:00:32

I have a question on multiway hands and HU hands. Am I right in assuming that you can play multiway hands (hands that make the nuts 1 or two ways) in HU situations profitably but that you can't play HU hands multiway?

I have a question on multiway hands and HU hands. Am I right in assuming that you can play multiway hands (hands that make the nuts 1 or two ways) in HU situations profitably but that you can't play HU hands multiway?

Position becomes key in this respect, since we want to be able to value bet thinly. So if we have the second or third nut straight on a board with a lot of draws that goes 3 ways we tend to be able to play that hand well in position since we can put in a value bet when we are checked to. Conversely we can also bluff our missed draws profitably against multiple opponents, depending on the action.

For example, if you have a J high flush draw 3 ways and some sort of wrap, you consider the flush draw to be back up equity if you are OOP. If you make your flush on the river and you are first to act, the best line is to check/call, which we basically hate doing. However if we are in position and it checks to us we can comfortably bet/fold our flush draw for value. It is certainly a complicated issue and I encourage you to post hands where the action goes multiway and you are faced with a river decision.

So in short--the less nutty a draw is, the more important position becomes in non-all in confrontations.

prefelop

This is genius imo.

Great 2nd Video, looking forward fro more.

I'm really new to PLO and I;m really happy about it that you do this series. Now I have 62By inns for 10NL to start with. I want to start at 10Nl to get the basics right and etc...

I find it aswell very good thta you don't have any pre flop Hand Chart. Whyle I watche the video i Stop so many times just to listen to some pasages again, and take alot of notes. Because i can learn better if I write them later down on my Ipad. SO that I can read them alot. I'm really fascinating from PLO.

THanks Guys

Hi,

question is it sthill so, that people at micros. Still 3 betting or 4 betting you with AAXX??