Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by DeathDonkey (Mid Stakes)

Time Link to 00:15:37

Hilarious hand! I screamed raise on the river and I def think it'sa much better play than call. What big UI clubs can bbs have? KQ, QJ that's about it and they are both marginal to say the least) pf. Compare that to KK-JJ, JTs (if he is gettig frisky) and even 99 and I think raising is worth it for sure.

I love what u are saying about not trusting loose passives in bloated pots. That is something I've learned the expensive way. Extremely important concept. In these spots even a 79 year old academic is able to mobilize some testosterone.

Time Link to 00:22:14

BF this turn could potentially be dangerous if brein makes the play u discussd in last hand. That is CC a pair intendig to raise the turn to face SB with 2bb. Also after he saw that SB only calls the flop he now only needs to push out one player with a semi-bluff (SB will fold ~100% to a raise on the turn IMO). So if he decided not to on the flop he may very well change his mind on the turn. Especialy if he holds the 9,8

Time Link to 00:45:15

I don't get the discussion about pokystar calling down with 77. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that. It's totally standard? Especially since we know that Hr OTR is a lunatic who three bet bluffs 95% of all rivers. Seriousy folding 77 is really exploitable range wise IMO.

Last hand: Execellen discssion about checking behind. Somehing else I will store in my memory bank is the neccessitty (another horrible english word) to XR bluff this river with T9-8 some portion of the time. It's so important to read ur own range I guess at these higher stakes. Especially to understand what bluffs u actually have left.

Another very high quality vid from the donkey factory. I was a little bit disapointed at ep2 f this series but this one was excellent!!! How about letting DD carrying a mic 24/7? That way he could ramble whenever he feels like it. Youy could call it "Big Donkey". My guess is that he is making brilliant comments even while sleeping.

Hilarious hand! I screamed raise on the river and I def think it'sa much better play than call. What big UI clubs can bbs have? KQ, QJ that's about it and they are both marginal to say the least) pf. Compare that to KK-JJ, JTs (if he is gettig frisky) and even 99 and I think raising is worth it for sure.

I love what u are saying about not trusting loose passives in bloated pots. That is something I've learned the expensive way. Extremely important concept. In these spots even a 79 year old academic is able to mobilize some testosterone.

I agree with Sushi,

I think for an extra bet you can raise and certainly get the others to fold better hands that don't include an Ace. I would feel sick if I called and one of the others overcalled with JJ,QQ,KK.

BF this turn could potentially be dangerous if brein makes the play u discussd in last hand. That is CC a pair intendig to raise the turn to face SB with 2bb. Also after he saw that SB only calls the flop he now only needs to push out one player with a semi-bluff (SB will fold ~100% to a raise on the turn IMO). So if he decided not to on the flop he may very well change his mind on the turn. Especialy if he holds the 9,8

I am not sure a player who CCs first in is capable or creative enough to make this play. I think his most likely holdings are a flush draw or a pair. I don't think he is calling two cold with a gutshot or Ace high on the flop. The only legit straight draw would be 89. I don't think I feel good about check/calling here and I don't feel good about check/folding. The pot is big and I think it is worth it to get the BB off perhaps AQ or AK now that the turn is semicoordinated. I think you also get value from button those times you are ahead.

Awesome analysis Chris!

As I played the hand I was thinking which factors had to come together to allow me to win the hand.

bbs99 had to have a missed draw if I called or make a big fold with a big pocket if I raised.
Heisenberg had to have a missed draw or a worse hand than mine if I called (I think he would overcall JJ).
extoperator had to be crazy and bluff at this pot.

I figured it was too much of a parlay and after like half a minute folded. Raising appeared to be too spewy to me, because I wasnt even 100% sure if bbs folded KK or QQ if I did raise and whats my plan if extoperator 3-bets? call? fold? I mean I guess he could have the nuts there and lolslowplay them.

I am convinced that raising is the best play now though.

lolposthandchat:

Heisenberg: OMG I would have called if I had K high there!!
extoperator: no worries, I had the straight

I am not sure a player who CCs first in is capable or creative enough to make this play. I think his most likely holdings are a flush draw or a pair. I don't think he is calling two cold with a gutshot or Ace high on the flop. The only legit straight draw would be 89. I don't think I feel good about check/calling here and I don't feel good about check/folding. The pot is big and I think it is worth it to get the BB off perhaps AQ or AK now that the turn is semicoordinated. I think you also get value from button those times you are ahead.

I would bet for sure. Question for me is if should call a raise. I think it's really close.

Great analysis of the last hand DD. You pretty much touched on everything I was thinking about it.

Time Link to 00:38:02

I was playing HUHU when I watch this so I just go ahead and c/r a JT6 flop and of course villain folded

Time Link to 00:14:20

I must be really weak tight but for me I would call turn and automuck river. Although you are getting 22 to 1 or whatever I think the probability of your hand being good at showdown is FAR below that. For someone just to call everything down and than finallly bet into three people on the river with a hand 3pair or worse seems extremely unlikely. If he was into bluffing or doing something screwy he would have done it earlier i think

Time Link to 00:24:49

i don't think raising the flop accomplishes much. the only reason " your read" was right and he folded was b/c the player raised on the flop realized that either swimming pool or brein had him beat on the turn. If brein wasn't in in the turn the chances of him calling down some bad pair goes up dramatically so although he was weak and it seems you accomplished something i dont' think you accomplishe anything, and the call on the river is terrible

Time Link to 00:25:15

your talking about how bad he played it but on flop he was just trying to suck in other player (which he did) on turn if he would have raised you would have folded, so the way he played it actually wasn't that bad. in my opinon raising the flop with nothing than getting cold called behind you when it was threebets preflop , than betting turn and check calling river when you can't even come up with 1 hand that could possibly beat is FAR worse.

Time Link to 00:28:16

I would cold call 2 cold, but if it comes back capped on flop than fold for 2 more. Folding top pair here would be crazy, there is no way that if you are going to play this hand preflop you can fold here in my opinion.

Time Link to 00:44:34

I must be a very conservative player, but I think that play with 96dd is very bad on every street except preflop, especially on teh turn. If we call the turn he is calling the river, b/c if he had a straight draw on the turn most players will raise there draws and just call there marginal hands and showdownable non pair hands. are you trying to put him on a non showdownable draw that he doesn't raise at 3060?

Time Link to 00:52:27

I would bet/fold river in this situation versus a good opponent. I can't see him check raising with worse given the action

Time Link to 00:56:51

I think the way to summarize this hand is to bet the river if you are willing to fold to a check/raise or check behind if you are not willing to fold to a checkraise.

you would feel sick? they are overcalling everytime with qq/kk thats not even in discussion of folding

I agree with Sushi,

I think for an extra bet you can raise and certainly get the others to fold better hands that don't include an Ace. I would feel sick if I called and one of the others overcalled with JJ,QQ,KK.

Hilarious hand! I screamed raise on the river and I def think it'sa much better play than call. What big UI clubs can bbs have? KQ, QJ that's about it and they are both marginal to say the least) pf. Compare that to KK-JJ, JTs (if he is gettig frisky) and even 99 and I think raising is worth it for sure.

I love what u are saying about not trusting loose passives in bloated pots. That is something I've learned the expensive way. Extremely important concept. In these spots even a 79 year old academic is able to mobilize some testosterone.

River raise on that hand is a spew imo. You are converting 22-1 odds to 11-1 odds. Issue for me isn't even whether you can push out the other 2 players (which is of course a consideration) - it's that the 22-1 odds in itself is very close for purposes of making this call. 99 is almost never good against the river donker who's watched the pot get capped twice. You aren't good against him 1 time in 12 in this spot.

I must be a very conservative player, but I think that play with 96dd is very bad on every street except preflop, especially on teh turn. If we call the turn he is calling the river, b/c if he had a straight draw on the turn most players will raise there draws and just call there marginal hands and showdownable non pair hands. are you trying to put him on a non showdownable draw that he doesn't raise at 3060?

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i agree , i play much lower and even the tags there will call down with 77 especially with how the board came out. I do make this play with OTR's hand but only against really foldy opponents and unknowns who i suspect will give up.

Now i understand all of what DD and OTR was thinking about when he made the c/r on the flop but the turn and river were just horrible for getting a 30/60 tag to fold. Put some scare cards up there and i think OTR could get a fold. Also i think c/ring and fire UI gives OTR a good image and maybe he will get pokkystar to tilt or even give him some unreasonable action in future hands.

You aren't good against him 1 time in 12 in this spot.

I think we are.

but the turn and river were just horrible for getting a 30/60 tag to fold. Put some scare cards up there and i think OTR could get a fold.

That's funny, I think the exact opposite. At 10/20 you are correct, at 30/60 the more draws you put out there the more reason people have to call down.

I must be a very conservative player, but I think that play with 96dd is very bad on every street except preflop, especially on teh turn. If we call the turn he is calling the river, b/c if he had a straight draw on the turn most players will raise there draws and just call there marginal hands and showdownable non pair hands. are you trying to put him on a non showdownable draw that he doesn't raise at 3060?

This criticism is very exaggerated IMO. If u are only XR hands like GS+ ur opponent will have a really easy time reading u on the turn. On some turn cards ur range will be way too strong.

Speaking of the turn, the part of his range consisting of OC + BD's and weak GS are enough to fire again I think. I also don't think he will raise all his straight draws. Take one like Q8. He has SD value. He may plan to take it to the river and then fold thinking that he sometimes wins UI when OTR givs up on a bluff (vs u that sounds like a good plan).

I could come up with a million ways of playing hands to put money where I have virtually no hand/no draw and than come up with reasons why it's a good metagame layer or whatever, but 9 out of 10 times looks like lighting money on fire to me.

Maybe for players above my skill level they can make it work, but for my skill level I can't see this working or being a part of an overall solid winning strategy

This criticism is very exaggerated IMO. If u are only XR hands like GS+ ur opponent will have a really easy time reading u on the turn. On some turn cards ur range will be way too strong.

Speaking of the turn, the part of his range consisting of OC + BD's and weak GS are enough to fire again I think. I also don't think he will raise all his straight draws. Take one like Q8. He has SD value. He may plan to take it to the river and then fold thinking that he sometimes wins UI when OTR givs up on a bluff (vs u that sounds like a good plan).

maybe i didn't think that through the best, but I still think 999/1000 players shouldn't be screwing around with something like this and there are other things that I should be working on and doing something like this would make playing a lot of tables for any length of time nearly impossible, so any small extra profit you may earn off it, would be mitigated by the fact that you couldn't leverage up hours and tables while employing a strategy that involves doing something like this... just my 2 cents

That's funny, I think the exact opposite. At 10/20 you are correct, at 30/60 the more draws you put out there the more reason people have to call down.

U have moved from "very bad on every street" to "any small extra profit you may earn off it, would be mitigated by the fact that you couldn't leverage up hours and tables while employing a strategy that involves doing something like this"...

no i haven't changed that i think that the whole thing is not profitable, but even if it was what i said would also be true

U have moved from "very bad on every street" to "any small extra profit you may earn off it, would be mitigated by the fact that you couldn't leverage up hours and tables while employing a strategy that involves doing something like this"...

no i haven't changed that i think that the whole thing is not profitable, but even if it was what i said would also be true

This hand is quite profitable when you're playing against wide ranges. Of course I wouldn't do it against EVERYONE (total maniacs who fight for every pot and won't fold king high after rebluffing with it or guys who will call down with jack high when the board bricks come to mind, guys who can't hand read and will never fold a pair no matter what comes). However, put simply, for me NOT to c/r this type of hand a guy would have to be playing pretty far from "correct" lhe strategy.


M2: I'd advise you to think a little bit about what sushi is saying about various turn cards. Part of being balanced is to consider possible future events on the turn and river. So in this particular spot, lets say the worst turn card in the deck comes on the turn: Q of anything. How does your range look now? Do you still have enough draws to put your oppoent into a tough position with hands like A high, and small pp? My guess is that playing the strategy you describe, you'd only have one draw left in your range on this particular board texture. Of course you'd have a few combos of this draw, but still not enough to make your opponent think about continuing with even his worst tens.

I could give you examples of other turn cards that would, once again, make your range too strong, but I think it is sufficent to say that on about 16!!! cards that come on the turn (4Q, 4K, 49, 49), your range will be WAY too strong for your play to be balanced. And against anyone even remotely competent, you do need to be balanced in this spot.


As far as every street being played badly here, I mean, the turn is really standard once I c/r, not only because people peel in this spot with like J2dd, but also because I have to make river bluffs on various cards credible. It would be ludicris to c/r this flop texture and not fire a second barrel on a blank (there are turn cards that I would check, but that's another issue). On the river, I'm targeting hands like Q8, Q9, 89discounted, 9Tdiscounted, K9discounted, KQdiscounted. I've put the discounted hands in order from least discounted to most.

Thanks for your comments!

I must be very narrow-minded or just straight up dumb, but I don't think your unbalanced by calling this hand preflop and than just check folding the flop. Maybe this play would work well against me specifically b/c I'm not calling down very often with king high or worse, so maybe this is the correct play against me, but I doubt it.

I'd like to see a 4-6 handed six max game with both of us and some of the other posters on here and see if some of these redic plays actually work and turn it into a video. I actually think I would be a good target to try some of these plays against b/c generally I am playing a lot of tables and not paying that close of attention to anything at a specific table, so if we do the mock game i'll do the same thing and keep another 6 tables running. I'll still take my chances.

I do think that posting some redic plays is defintely good for your "image" and maybe I should consider posting some crazy plays to make others think i'm crazy... haha jk.

This hand is quite profitable when you're playing against wide ranges. Of course I wouldn't do it against EVERYONE (total maniacs who fight for every pot and won't fold king high after rebluffing with it or guys who will call down with jack high when the board bricks come to mind, guys who can't hand read and will never fold a pair no matter what comes). However, put simply, for me NOT to c/r this type of hand a guy would have to be playing pretty far from "correct" lhe strategy.


M2: I'd advise you to think a little bit about what sushi is saying about various turn cards. Part of being balanced is to consider possible future events on the turn and river. So in this particular spot, lets say the worst turn card in the deck comes on the turn: Q of anything. How does your range look now? Do you still have enough draws to put your oppoent into a tough position with hands like A high, and small pp? My guess is that playing the strategy you describe, you'd only have one draw left in your range on this particular board texture. Of course you'd have a few combos of this draw, but still not enough to make your opponent think about continuing with even his worst tens.

I could give you examples of other turn cards that would, once again, make your range too strong, but I think it is sufficent to say that on about 16!!! cards that come on the turn (4Q, 4K, 49, 49), your range will be WAY too strong for your play to be balanced. And against anyone even remotely competent, you do need to be balanced in this spot.


As far as every street being played badly here, I mean, the turn is really standard once I c/r, not only because people peel in this spot with like J2dd, but also because I have to make river bluffs on various cards credible. It would be ludicris to c/r this flop texture and not fire a second barrel on a blank (there are turn cards that I would check, but that's another issue). On the river, I'm targeting hands like Q8, Q9, 89discounted, 9Tdiscounted, K9discounted, KQdiscounted. I've put the discounted hands in order from least discounted to most.

Thanks for your comments!

I feel I should add to OTR15's comments by saying a good amount of that applies to the 1) wide steal range of a 30/60 player in a 3 handed game, 2) ability for even a weaker player at 30/60 to hand read and fold when scary cards hit, 3) ability to recognize the future metagame value of showing this bluff and using the information, which I agree with MI2 is difficult to leverage when you are playing as many tables as MI2 does. So it may in fact be closer to correct for MI2 to play these spots more conservatively, and definitely is true at say 10/20.

I must be very narrow-minded or just straight up dumb, but I don't think your unbalanced by calling this hand preflop and than just check folding the flop. Maybe this play would work well against me specifically b/c I'm not calling down very often with king high or worse, so maybe this is the correct play against me, but I doubt it.

I'd like to see a 4-6 handed six max game with both of us and some of the other posters on here and see if some of these redic plays actually work and turn it into a video. I actually think I would be a good target to try some of these plays against b/c generally I am playing a lot of tables and not paying that close of attention to anything at a specific table, so if we do the mock game i'll do the same thing and keep another 6 tables running. I'll still take my chances.

I do think that posting some redic plays is defintely good for your "image" and maybe I should consider posting some crazy plays to make others think i'm crazy... haha jk.

I would say I bluff far less then it seems from what I post on the forums

I will also say that I don't find this play to be redic at all. In fact it's pretty standard and a pretty big part of my overall strategy in wide range situations.... I'll also say that I'd make this play far less in a 4 handed situation and rarely in a six max situation because the ranges are just going to be narrower...

When I say your range is unbalanced, I mean on certain turn cards.... mainly straight completing cards, your range will be too strong. As a corelary, if you c/r all your draws, your range is going to be too weak on some blank cards, you can solve this by value c/r more on the flop and c/r less draws (ones with sd potetial usually work well)

Time Link to 00:37:57

Edit: Sorry, made a post that was essentially already written several times over regarding the 9d6d hand.
Good video, thanks.

I must be very narrow-minded or just straight up dumb, but I don't think your unbalanced by calling this hand preflop and than just check folding the flop. Maybe this play would work well against me specifically b/c I'm not calling down very often with king high or worse, so maybe this is the correct play against me, but I doubt it.

I'd like to see a 4-6 handed six max game with both of us and some of the other posters on here and see if some of these redic plays actually work and turn it into a video. I actually think I would be a good target to try some of these plays against b/c generally I am playing a lot of tables and not paying that close of attention to anything at a specific table, so if we do the mock game i'll do the same thing and keep another 6 tables running. I'll still take my chances.

I do think that posting some redic plays is defintely good for your "image" and maybe I should consider posting some crazy plays to make others think i'm crazy... haha jk.

Simply put, he's saying he guesses you don't bluff enough on a JT3 rainbow board. It's not a problem against bad players who aren't hand reading all that well and pay off too much but against a strong player you simply never get paid off when the turn is a Q, 9, etc.

yeah i get what you are saying, but i feel very uncomfortable even considering doing stuff like that.....

Simply put, he's saying he guesses you don't bluff enough on a JT3 rainbow board. It's not a problem against bad players who aren't hand reading all that well and pay off too much but against a strong player you simply never get paid off when the turn is a Q, 9, etc.

yeah i get what you are saying, but i feel very uncomfortable even considering doing stuff like that.....

Thoughts on making this play with a weak Kx?

folding unless it is a strong king, although that may also be a leak...

Thoughts on making this play with a weak Kx?

Time Link to 00:19:02

I don't quite understand DD's comment here.

If we're going to put in 5 bets on preflop and flop, isn't it better to put in 3 preflop and let BTN face 2 bets on the flop (as we almost always want him out of the way).

Therefore, calling 3 preflop and raising a lot of flops is very similar to capping preflop and betting the flop in terms of number of bets goes in, but gives us some additional protection.

Unless you think SB will donk at a high frequency even after we cap.

MI I just want to say I have the highest respect for u. I just felt u used too strong words in both this thread and the other. Frankly it annoyed me some. It would make it more fun to discuss if u could tone down the aggression a little bit IMO. But if not that's ok too, because no doubt u know a ton of poker!

Regards!

Time Link to 00:15:36

LOLLLLLLLL I'd go crazy if I'm jay

sorry i normally don't comment on forums, if there is some etiquette i should be using just let me know.. so far i have just been saying what i think.....

MI I just want to say I have the highest respect for u. I just felt u used too strong words in both this thread and the other. Frankly it annoyed me some. It would make it more fun to discuss if u could tone down the aggression a little bit IMO. But if not that's ok too, because no doubt u know a ton of poker!

Regards!

sorry i normally don't comment on forums, if there is some etiquette i should be using just let me know.. so far i have just been saying what i think.....

The only thing I've had a problem with etiquette wise is quoting at the bottom of your posts! Quote at the top please.

Otherwise, I just think you're wrong in this particular spot. Nothing against your posting style, just trying to express my point of view.

The only thing I've had a problem with etiquette wise is quoting at the bottom of your posts! Quote at the top please.

Otherwise, I just think you're wrong in this particular spot. Nothing against your posting style, just trying to express my point of view.

haha ok...

sorry i normally don't comment on forums, if there is some etiquette i should be using just let me know.. so far i have just been saying what i think.....

Hehe forums are typically a lot more brutal than this. You are obv allowed to post in whatever style u like. Personally I like nitty words like: pot odds, show-down value, equity, board texture a lot more than: awful, very bad, horrible, stupid. I just feel it makes the discussion more interesting.

I'd like to see a 4-6 handed six max game with both of us and some of the other posters on here and see if some of these redic plays actually work and turn it into a video.

Very tempting to play vs you, OTR and DD with the only goal to try to run you over from OOP. However to get statistical significant data we would need to play about 1 billion hands. And by then I would have been forced to sell my apartment aswell as my organs.

A better way to find this out would be if u could estimate the range you raise from BTN. Then what hands u BF on the flop and what hands you peel the flop and fold to the turn barell (given board texture). Then we could use pokerazor to calculate an approx of the EV of XR.

I'll make a mini video for u if u want.

Very tempting to play vs you, OTR and DD with the only goal to try to run you over from OOP. However to get statistical significant data we would need to play about 1 billion hands. And by then I would have been forced to sell my apartment aswell as my organs.

A better way to find this out would be if u could estimate the range you raise from BTN. Then what hands u BF on the flop and what hands you peel the flop and fold to the turn barell (given board texture). Then we could use pokerazor to calculate an approx of the EV of XR.

I'll make a mini video for u if u want.

Post it on the forums plz... kthnk

yeah i get what you are saying, but i feel very uncomfortable even considering doing stuff like that.....

If button raises 60% and u defend with 80% of ur hands in BB minus the top20% that u 3bet u will have to go on with a lot of hands that feels uncomfortable in a vacuum on a JT3r board. U have to do it because u got an overall strategy that u think is the best against villains range, not because u think 96s is a winner in a vaccum.

If u dont think this hand should be a part of an overall strategy u have to give us ur overall strategy. What would u checkraise and checkall on this flop?

U have to do it because u got an overall strategy that u think is the best against villains range, not because u think 96s is a winner in a vaccum.

Im pretty sure OTR believes the play is a winner in a vaccum in this hand. In a GTO strategy all hands are played in a way that has maximum expectation vs ur opponent who also play an equillibrium strat (if not it wouldn't be an equillibrium). So u should never take a suboptimal line to mix it up. That makes no sense.