Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

Time Link to 00:09:35

What hands are we cleaning up outs against? Didn't understand this comment at all Chuck. Joe I think you might have suggested every option on the flop at one time or another. Personally I'd raise here 100% for value, and if the guy behind folds clean overcards lucky us. I think fold is by far the worst option.

Time Link to 00:09:35

35o SB hand I would c/f the turn.

QJo hand I don't think the river fold is all that bad, there is a pretty big parlay of events that have to be true for our hand to be good here.

I feel like there was some results orientedness going on with the above two hands.

Time Link to 00:49:40

I like cap and lead the turn given the read by OTR15.

On the river I'd bet/call. I don't think this guy is raising Ax at all, and maybe not even small two pair, our hand looks a lot like a flush, he is fairly polarized, I think the 3 bet is a valueless FPS play. If he folds to the 3 bet we had him beat almost always.

What hands are we cleaning up outs against?

When a 7 hits the turn and a Ace hits the river, ofc.

35o SB hand I would c/f the turn.

QJo hand I don't think the river fold is all that bad, there is a pretty big parlay of events that have to be true for our hand to be good here.

I feel like there was some results orientedness going on with the above two hands.

You fold the 53o pre? correct?

No way on the QJo, that pot is huge.

I like cap and lead the turn given the read by OTR15.

On the river I'd bet/call. I don't think this guy is raising Ax at all, and maybe not even small two pair, our hand looks a lot like a flush, he is fairly polarized, I think the 3 bet is a valueless FPS play. If he folds to the 3 bet we had him beat almost always.

If there is a small percentage of the time that he folds a better hand, and I feel the conditions are perfect for him to do so, we play our hand from value-bet, then when raised, to a bluff (like a flush).

http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/1010-Episode-Two?seek=2824

I'm about to be on the road for the whole weekend so let me just talk about this hand for a second from a couple of perspectives.

First from a GTO perspective, I have no doubt that this is absolutely the right way to play the hand. When I take this line (up to the river 3bet) I only have value hands. This is the bottom of my value range (something like T7 is probably in there too but same hand basically). And I should be 3bet bluffing sometimes on this river in order to make it hard to exploit me by 3bet/folding too much of the bottom of your value range (like 11% or something is equalibrium?). I'm 100% convinced that this hand is correct from that perspective.

However, from the other perspective (how people actually play poker), I have to say I'm not so convinced. All the issues that Chuck and Joe were wrestling with in the video (many opponents are polarized here, people don't raise/fold better hands, how does my opponent view me, etc) do bother me in a spot like this. I will say that DD's comment about capping and leading the turn seems a bit off to me as that seems like contrary to the way I play value hands in my range. Of course I'll be fastplaying some percentage of the time, but on this board texture I'd rather have something that isn't so high card dominant (approching a hand w/ sd value really) to balance that line...

Anyway, got off track there for a second... I guess that's all I really wanted to say about this hand... Mostly I just think that I got confused, realized I should have a flush here a lot and that I have the bottom of my range, and decided to go a little animal. It was fun.

What hands are we cleaning up outs against? Didn't understand this comment at all Chuck. Joe I think you might have suggested every option on the flop at one time or another. Personally I'd raise here 100% for value, and if the guy behind folds clean overcards lucky us. I think fold is by far the worst option.

Cleaning up outs isn't the way to put it, basically meant knocking out button.

I agree fold is worst. Value isn't 100% here because a LP donked out so I think it's kind of close but like I said I would raise.

If there is a small percentage of the time that he folds a better hand, and I feel the conditions are perfect for him to do so, we play our hand from value-bet, then when raised, to a bluff (like a flush).

Ok, yes, you've repeated why OTR15 made the play he did, and what you said in the video. I certainly understand what the play was (bet for value, 3 bet as bluff), but my point remains that a guy with the read OTR15 gave is not going to up and fold TWO PEARS if he raises them on a super scare card (debateable in the first place). I think if he ever raised Ax he would be more inclined to fold that to a 3 bet but I think he doesn't raise Ax very often on such a scary river card anyway.

So yes the times he raise/folds a better hand than a pair of tens we are thrilled, but it certainly matters how often that's occurring given we are risking a full extra big bet in a spot where we get to see showdown anyway. What better hands are raise/folding this river? I just don't see it and stick with my thoughts that its FPS.

Time Link to 00:11:46

To be honest I was listening to all of the debates between folding, calling and raising and I don't think it is that close. First, he is my thought process. As a reg at 2/4 stakes it not uncommon to see bad players donk relatively good hands that should have been CR instead. There are lot of guys who would fire hands that have a 7 in them. I agree with the fact that the pot is relatively big and that we should try to protect it but I do not think that folding here is terrible. As for calling, I hate it a lot. I cannot find one good reason why we would want a third player to either call and have outs vs. us or raise us on the street. Hence, I believe that Folding is slightly better than Raising and Calling is awful.

Ok, yes, you've repeated why OTR15 made the play he did, and what you said in the video. I certainly understand what the play was (bet for value, 3 bet as bluff), but my point remains that a guy with the read OTR15 gave is not going to up and fold TWO PEARS if he raises them on a super scare card (debateable in the first place). I think if he ever raised Ax he would be more inclined to fold that to a 3 bet but I think he doesn't raise Ax very often on such a scary river card anyway.

So yes the times he raise/folds a better hand than a pair of tens we are thrilled, but it certainly matters how often that's occurring given we are risking a full extra big bet in a spot where we get to see showdown anyway. What better hands are raise/folding this river? I just don't see it and stick with my thoughts that its FPS.

Ax and TWO PAIRS are the same hand. I'd expect him to realize this some % of the time. THREE OF THE SAME is also the same hand when I 3bet the river, but no one ever folds THREE OF THE SAME so I didn't even think about it.

Time Link to 00:38:37

To be honest I do not think a complete calling station will fire a 10 riv without having two pair a huge time. However, I do agree that this person can have some weak 10's in the range. You guys make it seem that you are winning nearly 100% of the time. I do not think this is the case. Again, I am trying to impose my stereotypes of 2/4 and 3/6 donks

Time Link to 00:38:37

Hmmm... good reads... I take back everything I just have to tell myself that people do not play like me and they are irrational. So sick that he checked the flop /w A-10. Weird people.

Hmmm... good reads... I take back everything I just have to tell myself that people do not play like me and they are irrational. So sick that he checked the flop /w A-10. Weird people.

BTW I didnt look at any of the hands besides the last one before the video.

To be honest I was listening to all of the debates between folding, calling and raising and I don't think it is that close. First, he is my thought process. As a reg at 2/4 stakes it not uncommon to see bad players donk relatively good hands that should have been CR instead. There are lot of guys who would fire hands that have a 7 in them. I agree with the fact that the pot is relatively big and that we should try to protect it but I do not think that folding here is terrible. As for calling, I hate it a lot. I cannot find one good reason why we would want a third player to either call and have outs vs. us or raise us on the street. Hence, I believe that Folding is slightly better than Raising and Calling is awful.

You are way underestimating your equity even when he does have a better hand. The pot is extremely bloated due to preflop. Folding here is really really bad, it is a large mistake, I feel strongly about this.

What hands are we cleaning up outs against? Didn't understand this comment at all Chuck. Joe I think you might have suggested every option on the flop at one time or another. Personally I'd raise here 100% for value, and if the guy behind folds clean overcards lucky us. I think fold is by far the worst option.

I agree with this.

I would raise this flop even if it was rainbow. The only situation where I would consider folding this flop would be if it was 5 or 6 way in an unraised pot and a straightforward BB leading out and I was next to act.

It should be mentioned that we will have the Button and maybe the BB reversed dominated on occassion.

Time Link to 00:30:18

This is about the 30 minute mark. Not sure why I have been having problems with the time link.

What about check/calling this turn and check/folding the river. Please note, I am just throwing this out there and would be curious to here your thoughts

The villian has one of 3 types of hands here; Monsters, small pairs, and gutshots. I find that the most common scenario is that the villian will bet if checked to on the turn with his whole range figuring he has been given the green light. He will bet the turn and river with the monsters but will quite often check back the river with his missed draws and small pairs.

Therefore, I don't think we need to worry about protecting our hand with a bet on the turn since it is my opinion that the villian will bet for us. I also don't think that the villian will bet the river as a bluff often since he should have some showdown value given his range and certainly can't expect the SB to fold too many better hands. He may check back his small pairs on the river so we will often save a bet.

I don't think the parlay of the villian holding a hand like 77, checking the flop and folding at any time is worth the bet.

I also don't mind it getting checked down since we don't have great equity against his range.

I suppose against a non thinking player we may still have to call this river or possibly just check/fold the turn since our equity can't be good.

Nice post motienko, agree with a lot of it. Despite results I generally like the c/c c/f suggestion, though I also liked folding the turn.

There's something wrong with the hand converter. The pots were always bigger in the hand history than the action suggested. E.g. on hand 2 you were getting 10-1 with the raiser to act against you and not 14-1. Not that it's totally skews the analysis, just sayin'.

Ooops, you said this just after I posted this. move along...

I suppose against a non thinking player we may still have to call this river or possibly just check/fold the turn since our equity can't be good.

This was my school of thought on the hand. The river was a brick.
Folding PF makes tons of sense given the rake. I was folding the flop if this guy bet 100% but he checked. I understand now that even the amount of weak pairs in his hand on the turn have us beat like 44-77 and our equity vs all of his broadway stuff isn't good. So again c/f turn is an option as well. Mind you i have just started playing very short handed, so sometimes i catch myself in situations were i'm not sure if i should be continuing with pairs. I tend to showdown alot.

Oh and point taken in the QJo hand. Pot was too big. Like idk if you guys looked at the results before but your guys reads were good. I was like wtf how do they see that?? oh cute alias you gave me...figures two east coast playas....

Time Link to 00:36:20

wir verloren = we lose in German - oh the irony

Oh and point taken in the QJo hand. Pot was too big. Like idk if you guys looked at the results before but your guys reads were good. I was like wtf how do they see that?? oh cute alias you gave me...figures two east coast playas....

The only hand I looked at was the OTR hand on the end. All your hands were street by street, brand new to me. That QJ pot is huge, it can never be a mistake to call there.