Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Joe Tall (High Stakes)

I love this series.
Also your table mod is very sweet.

Time Link to 00:35:52

Wow,

limit is such an insane game.

(btw. "I has a pair" literally translated means "Ich hat ein Paar" in german, while "Pear" is "Birne" obv)

The following is a serious question: Why do ppl actually bluff in LHE when everyone and their moms go to showdown with "bottom pear" (Unterbirne ldo)?

I mean I can understand betting the hand I linked just because of the HUGE amounts of equity we have, but from watching limit videos I get the feeling that there is nothing more insane than betting a whiffed draw on the river.

Sure, the pot is so huge more often than not, that the bluff doesn't have to work all that often, but that also means that we're getting called with "trash". That is trash from a NLHE player's POV.

Hmmm... somehow it didn't link the hand. I'm talking about the 54hh at 35 minutes

Wow,

limit is such an insane game.

(btw. "I has a pair" literally translated means "Ich hat ein Paar" in german, while "Pear" is "Birne" obv)

The following is a serious question: Why do ppl actually bluff in LHE when everyone and their moms go to showdown with "bottom pear" (Unterbirne ldo)?

I mean I can understand betting the hand I linked just because of the HUGE amounts of equity we have, but from watching limit videos I get the feeling that there is nothing more insane than betting a whiffed draw on the river.

Sure, the pot is so huge more often than not, that the bluff doesn't have to work all that often, but that also means that we're getting called with "trash". That is trash from a NLHE player's POV.

Hmmm... somehow it didn't link the hand. I'm talking about the 54hh at 35 minutes

It linked the hand you were talking about.

Basically in spots like that you're targeting the middle and bottom of their range -- it's true that people won't fold pairs or even Ace high, but people will fold QJ and T9s which they'll peel the flop with. Since turn ranges are wider because people peel the flop lightly and call preflop lightly, you have 15 outs very frequently but most importantly you still have a big chance of earning a lot of folds.

Rob

Time Link to 00:43:12

Glad you said this was a misclick.

Rob

Time Link to 00:44:27

Good payoff -- was really expecting to see him be full a lot more than full of shit, but there's no way I can fold there. Definitely worth taking a note that he 3-bet your UTG raise w/JTo then pulled a delayed river raise, maybe trying to take you off KTcc, KJcc?

Rob

Time Link to 00:44:29

Games are gooooooooooooooooooood (A8o bluff).

Games are gooooooooooooooooooood (A8o bluff).

That hand was absolutely sick. From a mis-click to a epic win!

Time Link to 00:04:01

I don't see the time link here. this is about the 4 minute mark

I think 3 betting this flop is superior to calling. I think we are ahead here quite often. The pot is getting big and I would love to get the button to fold overcards and be heads up and in position against the SB. I also think we can get the button off a ton of one card or even two card gutshot draws which he should have in his range. If he chooses to call it is value.

The Sb shouldn't have too many sixes or sevens in his range. I could see a hand like A5 or 65 both of which you still have a good edge over. He could have a 4 or a one card draw. He probably would have reraised 44,66,77 preflop although I certainly don't have any reads on SB.

Is there a reason that you would prefer calling the flop here?

I don't see the time link here. this is about the 4 minute mark

I think 3 betting this flop is superior to calling. I think we are ahead here quite often. The pot is getting big and I would love to get the button to fold overcards and be heads up and in position against the SB. I also think we can get the button off a ton of one card or even two card gutshot draws which he should have in his range. If he chooses to call it is value.

The Sb shouldn't have too many sixes or sevens in his range. I could see a hand like A5 or 65 both of which you still have a good edge over. He could have a 4 or a one card draw. He probably would have reraised 44,66,77 preflop although I certainly don't have any reads on SB.

Is there a reason that you would prefer calling the flop here?

I think 3-betting is ok, but it's hard to say because housemom really shouldn't have much in his range there given preflop. If he can have A5 often, he should be able to have 44/66 as well because he's more likely to be passive and too-cally preflop. You definitely want to fold out a hand like KQ when you have the best hand, but when you have the worst hand (up against 87, 76, 64s, or a set), you don't mind stringing him along because his equity gets chopped up between you and the SB.

The more likely SB is to have 98s or T9s, etc., the more apt you should be for jamming, but his coldcall makes it a little harder to narrowly define his range.

If you decided to 3-bet in this spot most of the time I think it's fine, but you should definitely not be 1000% convinced your hand is the nuts here.

Rob

Fnupple talks funny good vid too.

I have a problem with the mp4 version. One of the colour layers seems shifted in both VLC and WMP. The wmv looks perfect. Has anyone else this problem?

I have a problem with the mp4 version. One of the colour layers seems shifted in both VLC and WMP. The wmv looks perfect. Has anyone else this problem?

Sounds like a codec issue on your computer, wish I could provide more but that's pretty hard to diagnose.

Rob

Time Link to 00:01:46

Any chance u actually 3-bet this turn with JJ? How often does peopl chck back the flop with qx+? If this is a FSDR enough a 3-bet is obv good.

Time Link to 00:06:28

XR 6h3h seems awesome vs ti guy who prob will be really P on the flop. Would u start donking now when he has X back twice? I uess I have to keeop watching

Time Link to 00:07:12

I love villain turn X with K-high. And I think he must pay off sadly. Villains ability to X-back turns should probably go into the pf decission?

Time Link to 00:11:47

What do u think of villains pay-off on the QJ hand? I feel ur hand is pretty face up? U must have a crrrazy image.

Any chance u actually 3-bet this turn with JJ? How often does peopl chck back the flop with qx+? If this is a FSDR enough a 3-bet is obv good.

After I look at this, I have to say I like 3-betting the turn here. Given that:

1. We under-represented our hand.
2. Our opponent checked back the flop.
3. My expert hand reading, LDO.

XR 6h3h seems awesome vs ti guy who prob will be really P on the flop. Would u start donking now when he has X back twice? I uess I have to keeop watching

You are using a language I am unfamiliar with and I think you missed the time stamp by a few seconds.

But I rewound to the the 63s hand on the right, we still dont know much, so he's checked back 2x, I think we still keep him in line until there is a serious trend. Classic: sample size, imo.

I love villain turn X with K-high. And I think he must pay off sadly. Villains ability to X-back turns should probably go into the pf decission?

Yes, agreed. This should factor in the PF and earlier street decisions.

What do u think of villains pay-off on the QJ hand? I feel ur hand is pretty face up? U must have a crrrazy image.

We did have a pretty crazy image but I'm still surprised he paid off w/JJ there.

Time Link to 00:40:51

Given how weirdly this guy plays on big street BF feels kind of dirty. I thin BC s the line I prefer.

You are using a language I am unfamiliar with and I think you missed the time stamp by a few seconds.

Haha that's because I just invented it . P = polarized, we know he checks back his weak SD hands which should improve our ffold equity a ton.

Awesome video, love the format!!!! And thanks Joe for ur comments! U know I'm watching all ur stud videos now. I really like ur style!


@fnupple: Why don't u use the pf 3-bet strategy from the BB I gave (agaisnt ur will) . Yesterday Pygmy revealed he hasn't used PR ones after my private lesson. And now this! No one loves sushi .

Good payoff -- was really expecting to see him be full a lot more than full of shit, but there's no way I can fold there. Definitely worth taking a note that he 3-bet your UTG raise w/JTo then pulled a delayed river raise, maybe trying to take you off KTcc, KJcc?

Rob

They give TPiranha a hard time about his play in this hand but I think he played the hand expertly. The river raise is very good imo considering how many semibluffs fnupple has here. Preflop is slightly bad but its 5 handed.

But I rewound to the the 63s hand on the right, we still dont know much, so he's checked back 2x, I think we still keep him in line until there is a serious trend. Classic: sample size, imo.

I disagree with your conclusion that we don't have a large enough sample to shift strategies. The guy has checked back twice in a short period of time implementing a very non-standard strategy. I think its much more reasonable to conclude he will continue this trend (mathematics of poker discusses Bayesian analysis which is very appropriate here).

This concept occurs very often in huhu LHE, where I think its entirely right to make assumptions about the way a villain plays using a very small sample size, as long as you are continuously willing to adjust the assumptions based on new evidence.

I disagree with your conclusion that we don't have a large enough sample to shift strategies. The guy has checked back twice in a short period of time implementing a very non-standard strategy. I think its much more reasonable to conclude he will continue this trend (mathematics of poker discusses Bayesian analysis which is very appropriate here).

This concept occurs very often in huhu LHE, where I think its entirely right to make assumptions about the way a villain plays using a very small sample size, as long as you are continuously willing to adjust the assumptions based on new evidence.

Of course, but this is not HULHE. But what situation would you donk?

They give TPiranha a hard time about his play in this hand but I think he played the hand expertly. The river raise is very good imo considering how many semibluffs fnupple has here. Preflop is slightly bad but its 5 handed.

You and I talked about this after and I agree, beside preflop, all is good.

Of course, but this is not HULHE. But what situation would you donk?

The point is the same. We have a small sample of hands on a guy taking an unorthodox line in similar situations. I would begin to donk all my value hands on boards he is likely to check behind on in future blind defense spots vs him.

The point is the same. We have a small sample of hands on a guy taking an unorthodox line in similar situations. I would begin to donk all my value hands on boards he is likely to check behind on in future blind defense spots vs him.

I like.

Change that deuce to a four one time Joe Tall >3

is that table mod available somewhere?

Wowwwwwwwww a DC video where the instructors run hot! Sickness!

Wowwwwwwwww a DC video where the instructors run hot! Sickness!

This isn't even running hot for a DC instructor. You should see us when the cameras aren't rolling!

OH HAI FNUPPLE

~23 min mark: we we have K5o in BB. CO raises, SB coldcalls.

You're not in the pot with K-high getting 5:1 in position against a SB that coldcalled? I mean, I understand the thing with RIO and all, but the pot man, the pot!

Any chance u actually 3-bet this turn with JJ? How often does peopl chck back the flop with qx+? If this is a FSDR enough a 3-bet is obv good.

This hand is imo horrendous. Not 3betting the turn with the nuts is rly bad and I think betting out in the first place is highly debateable.

Time Link to 00:03:55

Opening A6o in the CO is close and at the very least it should be mentioned how much it depends on the button.

Iirc at this point in the video or friend to our left OTB had been coldcalling a few times and I think Fnupple mentions that he had been playing with him before the video and that he is loose/bad.

Highly questionable open with A6o and I am for sure no fan


Edit: The c/f on the T23J turn or whatever is a big mistake in my world. Dude peels his entire range on this flop and if you dont think he will bluff when you check you should fire one more. You have way too much equity to give up here

What do u think of villains pay-off on the QJ hand? I feel ur hand is pretty face up? U must have a crrrazy image.

Yes, agreed. This should factor in the PF and earlier street decisions.

Exactly!

I dont know if Fnupple was ironic or not when he said "you play well Sir" imediately after that hand but villain played his hand perfectly. I love how both JT and Fnupple says "he should be barreling his entire range" when every good player knows that betting the turn with K hi is rly bad considering the possiblity of hero not capping QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ preflop.

I am sorry but villain def outplayed Hero in that hand (despite I play AA like hero did pretty often).

Its a good example of how people are starting to adjust to the trend of never capping oop HU and never 3betting oop HU.

Time Link to 00:12:15

This fold seems pretty bad to me.

The dude clearly has issues and such dudes likes to take shots at paired boards. JT wonders why he did what he did but its pretty simple: He is an aggro donk and you guys just folded a pear against an aggro donk

Pretty freeking std 3bet

Time Link to 00:17:18

Again I am gonna have to be a little bit bitchy

Folding here is a mistake. The open limper can have a bit of everything including draws, air and A hi. The guy who calls can have any pair and any draw and there is a bunch of gutshots out there.

JT mentions that there is the problem that a 9 will hit a "couple of draws" on the KJ4rainbow flop. It can hit QT which is 16 combos, thats it. And QTs should be discounted because even fish will raise this PF once in a while.


Sorry if I am being results oriented again but you mostly have 5 outs when behind and you will win it UI once in a while as well.

Time Link to 00:17:18

This was a very disapointing video after the excellent episode 1.

Hate to be the bitch (no I dont) but JT seems extremely out of touch with online midstakes LHE. At no point did you guys debate anything advanced which I find kinda disturbing considering its a "high stakes" video. You also misplayed quite a few hands by what I consider a clear margin.

Havent been this disapointed since watching my fist Doughnutz vid

Hate to be the bitch (no I dont)

Oink, any chance we will see you in this series? I sure miss ur work aswell as ur sour comments!

I suspect in the 94 and JT missread the situaton some and thought it would be bad if Q9 hit the 9. Just my guess.

Do u think not capping OOP, not 3-bet BB, is starting to become the misstake in todays game as it always has been in theory?

Oink, any chance we will see you in this series? I sure miss ur work aswell as ur sour comments!

Pretty sure this series was made in LV while all the guys where at the wsop. I wasnt there so no, no chance of that.

Do u think not capping OOP, not 3-bet BB, is starting to become the misstake in todays game as it always has been in theory?

Its a mistake in theory? This is news to me.

I have never been a big fan since I find people apply this strategy in the wrong spots. Against very good opponents whom you literally platy +5k hands against each month I like it a lot. (And by very good opponents I dont mean your run of the mill .5BB/100 10/20 winner)

In the std midstakes games (or smallstakes) with much much larger player pools and a higher number of weak players I am no fan. I think its well known that I am a huge Schneids fan boy, so I find it better to make continuous adjustments based on image, dynamics and in particular the villain. People are way to gung ho on being unexploitable in the mid and small stakes games where its much more important to eploit all those who let themselves be exploited.

Exactly!

I dont know if Fnupple was ironic or not when he said "you play well Sir" imediately after that hand but villain played his hand perfectly. I love how both JT and Fnupple says "he should be barreling his entire range" when every good player knows that betting the turn with K hi is rly bad considering the possiblity of hero not capping QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ preflop.

I am sorry but villain def outplayed Hero in that hand (despite I play AA like hero did pretty often).

Its a good example of how people are starting to adjust to the trend of never capping oop HU and never 3betting oop HU.

I think you slightly misheard it Oink. Fnupple says "its unfortunate he is good enough to check behind the bottom of his range" and when he says "you play very well sir" he is talking to Joe Tall who asked him "how good do I play?" after guessing that villain held KQ.

Agree with your point that people are now playing better against the non capping strategy.

This was a very disapointing video after the excellent episode 1.

Hate to be the bitch (no I dont) but JT seems extremely out of touch with online midstakes LHE. At no point did you guys debate anything advanced which I find kinda disturbing considering its a "high stakes" video. You also misplayed quite a few hands by what I consider a clear margin.

Havent been this disapointed since watching my fist Doughnutz vid

I think this is a little harsh. This was fnupple's first ever video, and trying to play 30/60 while doing audio commentary in his non-native language, plus having Joe Tall pester him with all sorts of questions, could easily result in some play that isn't up to his standards.

I thought for a while before making that post as I wasnt sure its my place to hand out that kind of harsh criticism.

I rly wasnt trying to be a dick tho it seems to come quite natural to me. But I am not in the group of people who hand out 4 or 5 stars to every video I watch and just stay silent when I get disapointed.

This video didnt live up to my expectations. Maybe because I watched it just after watching episode 1 and maybe because I have come to expect so much from you guys.

But I was truly disapointed and I think its only fair to point that out. To my credit I did spend quite a bit of time writing out constructive criticism for both this episode and episode 1. For once I didnt just throw a oneliner out there along the lines of: You guys suck!

I think this is a little harsh.

For those who don't speak Oinkish that is completely true !

Its a mistake in theory? This is news to me.

What is the difference between pf and the flop (or turn for that matter)? In both cases we and or opponent have certain ranges with equity, certain chances of improvement, show-down value etc. There is no significant difference in theory.

For a human though there is a huge difference in ammount of information between the streets. We can predict action and estimate EV from the flop reasonably well. But predicting everything pf is impossible for us. However this is due to our limited resources not to any real difference.

So not re-raising OOP pf can certainly be a good play in practice, but in theory I believe it is a misstake (most importantly missing value).

Edit: Hmmm actually there could be a difference. Pf there are no hands that can't call a re-rais profitable which is not true on the flop. Anyway I still believe re-raisng pf is in priciple better (this has nothing to do with what is actually best in todays games)

This fold seems pretty bad to me.

The dude clearly has issues and such dudes likes to take shots at paired boards. JT wonders why he did what he did but its pretty simple: He is an aggro donk and you guys just folded a pear against an aggro donk

Pretty freeking std 3bet

Not going to even click the link but I assume this is the 66 hand and I 100% agree with you, we should have 3-bet.

This was a very disapointing video after the excellent episode 1.

Hate to be the bitch (no I dont) but JT seems extremely out of touch with online midstakes LHE. At no point did you guys debate anything advanced which I find kinda disturbing considering its a "high stakes" video. You also misplayed quite a few hands by what I consider a clear margin.

Havent been this disapointed since watching my fist Doughnutz vid

Hey sorry about that. I have not been in the mid-stakes LHE-only scene in a while (as I play a ton of LHE in mix-games at 15/30 to 50/100) and this was fnupple's first video EVER. It's really tough to make a live play vid, never mind having people ask you questions at the same time. Given the situation, I feel the vid is OK for it's purposes.

And wow, I will never watch a Doughnutz vid if that is the case and I feel bad for anyone who does.

I was out of line and I apologize for that!

I tried myself today to make a video with a good player commenting the hands. Two-tabling aggro games with a coach yapping on about this and that and asking questions in east and west is waaaaaaaaay harder than what I thought.

Multitasking is hard. Of the 160'ish hands I got to play I was clearheaded in maybe 5 of them and the rest was just one big daze. I dont think I have ever played that bad

Time Link to 00:05:07

i think here you should just call the threebet on the flop. even though you have him beat a higher percentage by the river it will allow him to play you perfectly by capping on the flop b/c he will call down with all his 1 pairs and pop everything else, so you will be forced into calling a raise on the turn and calling the river regardless which is giving too much action if you don't improve. why not just call and check raise turn or river if you hit.?

Time Link to 00:09:32

with q8 i think this is an easy peel versus a steal threebet.

Time Link to 00:12:05

on the qj is this a standard play? what are you hoping to accomplish? I think the standard line me would check/call, check/call, if checked behind on turn bet river?

i think here you should just call the threebet on the flop. even though you have him beat a higher percentage by the river it will allow him to play you perfectly by capping on the flop b/c he will call down with all his 1 pairs and pop everything else, so you will be forced into calling a raise on the turn and calling the river regardless which is giving too much action if you don't improve. why not just call and check raise turn or river if you hit.?

Really good point that I missed when I watched, I definitely agree with this. The guys say in the audio "no reason to think we're beat" but villain turning over AA isn't surprising at all, its a very scary flop and I don't think his hand is worth another raise.

Havent been this disapointed since watching my fist Doughnutz vid

I think a difference is that fnupple is better at pokertheory.

I hope fnupple make more vids, but I agree that another format probably would be better.