Messiah Teaches Table Selection: Part Two

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Messiah Teaches Table Selection: Part Two

Loved learning how to table select, but want to get some deeper analysis? In "Table Selection: Part Two," Messiah gives a more advanced walkthrough on table selection, note taking, and how to apply certain statistics to improve your SSNL game selection.

tags: seat selection table selection messiah messiahkid pokerace pokertracker statistics hud



Comments for Messiah Teaches Table Selection: Part Two

Squishee
Deuces Full
666 posts
Joined 01/08

This was very intructive.

When you talked about the river bet size /stack opponent and when we miss value was an excellent point which I will incorporate in my play of course.

Loved all others informations too, thanks

Posted Feb 6, 2008 1:42am

rashamba
Deuce High
22 posts
Joined 01/08

Messiah, I have also incorporated the Won $ WSF stat on my hud. I am still experimenting, but I think it gives good insight on how a person plays post flop. I personally have about a 44% W$WSF and am more agressive when I see there are orphaned pots. A typical set miner or big hand player is < 30%. Right now I feel if anyone is below 35% I believe them more post flop. Above 40% I am going to test them. Wonder if you ever used it or had opinions?

Posted Feb 6, 2008 3:08pm

Messiah
Pair of Deuces
229 posts
Joined 01/08

Messiah, I have also incorporated the Won $ WSF stat on my hud. I am still experimenting, but I think it gives good insight on how a person plays post flop. I personally have about a 44% W$WSF and am more agressive when I see there are orphaned pots. A typical set miner or big hand player is < 30%. Right now I feel if anyone is below 35% I believe them more post flop. Above 40% I am going to test them. Wonder if you ever used it or had opinions?



Funny you should bring this up. I honestly believe this is the #1 statistic players need to use when evaluating their own game. I use this 100% of the time with my students during our session reviews and when we talk about how they can begin improving their games. I also love the aspect of looking at WWSF from the position tab in Pokertracker.

I am not sure what to think of your analysis regarding using it in a HUD as a tool for decision making vs. opponents. The thing is, it takes a fairly large amount of hands to converge (player X could be running good and have 48+ % wwsf for a few K hands, and vise versa which all depends on sample sizes). I disagree that a "typical setminer" has a 30% WWSF. In my experience most "average TAGS" or I would say a typical/average 2+2er has a range of 35-39% over large samples. Just because a player is <35% does not necessarily equate to the fact that we should believe them more, it is more likely that said player just struggles postflop (especially on the turn and river).

Posted Feb 6, 2008 3:30pm

sondring
Deuce High
1 post
Joined 01/08

Towards the end of the video you raised the big stacks limp to $3.00 and $3.25 with AA and KK respectively. When you had 64s you only potted it to $2.25. Aren't you giving away the strength of your hand by doing this? Or do you think he's too much of a mouth-breather to notice?

Posted Feb 6, 2008 4:17pm

biznitz
Deuce High
7 posts
Joined 01/08

Messiah you define supalag sir. Was a solid video, talking about the different stats was a good refresher. Although nothing too exciting came up, two hands I noticed are:

(19:05) T9s: Squeezing is cool. Squeezing a 12/5/1 shortstack? Not so much :P Postflop I think you missed value by not at least attempting to give villain some rope to donk off his stack(or improve his hand) by checking once out of position. He only has a PSB left and leading 2/3 pretty much eliminates the chance he shoves with air. Checking enables him to shove the hands he's calling your lead with and also his likely range(AK/AQ/KQ broadways) considering the flat call preflop.

(12:37) T8s: It might be close, but it seems pretty -ev to give up on the $5 pot w/ 2nd pair when villain has $7 behind and likely didn't hit the flop. I'd be inclined to just shove the flop- of course cry when he has Qx but profit when he likely folds(or shows up with) a worse hand.

Posted Feb 6, 2008 8:11pm

Messiah
Pair of Deuces
229 posts
Joined 01/08

Towards the end of the video you raised the big stacks limp to $3.00 and $3.25 with AA and KK respectively. When you had 64s you only potted it to $2.25. Aren't you giving away the strength of your hand by doing this? Or do you think he's too much of a mouth-breather to notice?



This is just a product of me being so busy talking, I wound generally raise larger there with deeper stacks and a non-competent player with 100% of my raising range.

Posted Feb 7, 2008 12:48am

Messiah
Pair of Deuces
229 posts
Joined 01/08

Messiah you define supalag sir. Was a solid video, talking about the different stats was a good refresher. Although nothing too exciting came up, two hands I noticed are:

(19:05) T9s: Squeezing is cool. Squeezing a 12/5/1 shortstack? Not so much :P Postflop I think you missed value by not at least attempting to give villain some rope to donk off his stack(or improve his hand) by checking once out of position. He only has a PSB left and leading 2/3 pretty much eliminates the chance he shoves with air. Checking enables him to shove the hands he's calling your lead with and also his likely range(AK/AQ/KQ broadways) considering the flat call preflop.



Thank you for your kind words sir!

Yes, I agree that the better line may have been to check flop here, at the time I was think he would shove any pair (even lower than the paired 9s with that short of a stack which comprises of the majority % of his range - I think he shoves AK pre)

Posted Feb 7, 2008 12:52am

Messiah
Pair of Deuces
229 posts
Joined 01/08

Hey Members-

I need your input/feedback. Part I and II of my Table Selection and Note taking videos have received solid feedback, especially the parts where I talk about a few key PA Hud Stats.

I am planning a stand-alone video/series on in-depth analysis of PA HUD stats and how we should be using them. This will generally be used in any stakes of NLHE.

Besides the obvious (VPIP, PFR, Total AF), I will also be covering continuation bet %, fold cont bet %, bet river %, cold call %, went to showdown.

I come to you to ask which other statistics do you think many players misinterpret, misuse, etc that I could also focus on.

So ask and you shall receive...

Posted Feb 7, 2008 4:48pm

Squishee
Deuces Full
666 posts
Joined 01/08

Flop - Turn - River aggression ?

Also explain more about the pokertracker stats Won$WSF%

Posted Feb 7, 2008 10:21pm

Tukker
Deuce High
5 posts
Joined 02/08

Great vid and the more about these stats the better

Posted Feb 27, 2008 3:32pm

spliff
Deuce High
14 posts
Joined 01/08

Great video.

I have aggr. FACTOR by street in my HUD; do you think bet river % is better than river aggr factor in determening thin value/bluffing ranges at the river ?

The cold call % part is genious: but it will be obsolite when Pokertracker 3 comes with HUD on 3-bets.

So sad, i used to look forward to the pokertracker 3 release; after getting this info i am not looking forward anymore :)

Posted Apr 4, 2008 9:30pm

spliff
Deuce High
14 posts
Joined 01/08

There are 3 number you can use: Aggr factor, aggr frequency, and bet river.

I am playing a maniac right now who has: Aggr factor river: 5, aggr frequency river: 71, bet river %: 30

So he seems at the higher end of normal regarding to Bet river %; while he is extremly aggr on the river.

Posted Apr 5, 2008 1:28am

SixPackofBud
Deuce High
6 posts
Joined 05/08

i'd like to hear a little more on why you felt you had fold equity in the 3bet pot blind versus blind hand when you flop FD against opponents Top 2 pair. as opposed to when you flopped FD against the calling station. in both cases you felt villain had a piece of the flop.

thanks & great video...

Posted Jun 13, 2008 10:50am