Poker Video: Misc/Other by WiltOnTilt (Micro/Small Stakes)

Time Link to 00:30:28

For me i'd say it's around 50%+

Obv have to watch this vid, and so far totally agree with (almost) everything

Lost the best show ever is lol, it's not even close

Great content as usual.

Is LOST the best TV show ever?

Could you discuss the results needed to be qualified to coach a particular game and limit?
For example if i wanted to coach nl25-nl100 6max, would a 200K sample with a 3ptbb winrate at nl200 be around the minimum?
Would it be reasonable to coach players struggling to move up to nl200 or break even regs at 200nl with say a 4ptbb nl200 winrate?
I realise there are other important factors to being a good coach but this seems pretty crucial.

Could you discuss the results needed to be qualified to coach a particular game and limit?
For example if i wanted to coach nl25-nl100 6max, would a 200K sample with a 3ptbb winrate at nl200 be around the minimum?
Would it be reasonable to coach players struggling to move up to nl200 or break even regs at 200nl with say a 4ptbb nl200 winrate?
I realise there are other important factors to being a good coach but this seems pretty crucial.

You could be a good candidate to coach some players that play lower than you. You also need to be well spoken, internalize and verbalize your responses well, etc.

The thing is winrates aren't as objective of a measure as many would like them to be. Things like what sites you play, how well you game select, how well you play, variance, whether or not you start games, whether or not you instantly leave when fish sit out, and a whole host of other issues will effect it to some degree and if you do some of the winrate simulations like I did in the bankroll management video you can see that even over samples of hundreds of thousands of hands that winrates can vary greatly.

If you want to get into coaching, I would start coaching some people for free (or really cheap) and give you feedback about how you did, then if you're confident you can help people, have the students you coached recommend you to others or blog about it or post on forums etc

Love it. I am very pleased to see that you guys take it this seriously,

The other major training site that I see that has a simple access point for PMing them for coaching is Leggo Poker...

But I would BET those dudes don't take things as seriously and as professionally as DC. No shot.

Is LOST the best TV show ever?

Last show I was into....."don't tell me what i can't do!"

Great video guys! A lot of what you say seems obvious, but apparently its not necessarily something that is universally followed by some.

One question in terms of rates & the like ... how do you equate poker coaching with a 'regular job', if at all?

My 'regular job' is teaching in high school (doing casual at the moment, but have been full-time in the past also) & I have also done some chess coaching in the past, but the idea of charging someone $200+/hour seems totally foreign to me.
As a casual (substitute) teacher, you're looking at around $30-40/hour & coaching chess in schools (obviously something that is not possible with poker) could get you around $50-80/hour, although you were mostly limited to hours outside classroom time (lunch, after school, etc), so there was a limited amount of time you could work (and the payment effectively covered travel time, costs, etc).
I suppose one of the obvious differences is that you can actually make money playing poker, and can make something of a career out of it (to varying degrees), whereas with something like chess, you can only make a living from it by doing coaching, writing books, etc, unless you are in the top 20 or so in the world (and can them make money from prizes, appearance fees, etc).

Thoughts ...

If you want to get into coaching, I would start coaching some people for free (or really cheap) and give you feedback about how you did, then if you're confident you can help people, have the students you coached recommend you to others or blog about it or post on forums etc

I'm avaiable to be coached

Great video guys! A lot of what you say seems obvious, but apparently its not necessarily something that is universally followed by some.

One question in terms of rates & the like ... how do you equate poker coaching with a 'regular job', if at all?

My 'regular job' is teaching in high school (doing casual at the moment, but have been full-time in the past also) & I have also done some chess coaching in the past, but the idea of charging someone $200+/hour seems totally foreign to me.
As a casual (substitute) teacher, you're looking at around $30-40/hour & coaching chess in schools (obviously something that is not possible with poker) could get you around $50-80/hour, although you were mostly limited to hours outside classroom time (lunch, after school, etc), so there was a limited amount of time you could work (and the payment effectively covered travel time, costs, etc).
I suppose one of the obvious differences is that you can actually make money playing poker, and can make something of a career out of it (to varying degrees), whereas with something like chess, you can only make a living from it by doing coaching, writing books, etc, unless you are in the top 20 or so in the world (and can them make money from prizes, appearance fees, etc).

Thoughts ...

200+ hourly rates are similar to what some doctors and lawyers are making. However, when it comes to deciding what to charge it's very difficult to relate it to any 'regular job.' I think the main reason for that is exactly as you pointed out. The potential return on investment is so so high for poker coaching and unlike almost anything.

Throw one more in for LOST being the best show ever.




Great vid.

Great video guys. I think someone that doesn't play much can be a good coach as long as they can teach their student what to consider and how to formulate their game plans in each situation. I'm a firm believer that the coach should be teaching the student how to figure out what to do instead of what to do in specific spots, once you get past the fundamentals. Knowing how the average regs play for example on pokerstars will have significant affect on the latter only.

On coaching price, it's a supply and demand equation. You can't put a "worthy" on anything in a free market. People pay thousands for 1 comic books because they think it's worth it. If enough people think 200+/hr is worth it then that's how much your poker coaching is worth.

Great video guys. I think someone that doesn't play much can be a good coach as long as they can teach their student what to consider and how to formulate their game plans in each situation. I'm a firm believer that the coach should be teaching the student how to figure out what to do instead of what to do in specific spots, once you get past the fundamentals. Knowing how the average regs play for example on pokerstars will have significant affect on the latter only.

Like we said in the video, it's certainly possible for some people to be good coaches without a majority of their poker time being their own play and the reasons relate mostly to your points. However, the more recent playing experience the coach has, the more they will be able formulate more accurate ranges and frequencies for their students.

When you say a coach should be "teaching a student how to figure out what to do instead of what to do in specific spots," it makes me think that the actual range analysis factor of your coaching philosophy may be a bit different than ours. In general, I feel it's important to do both at the same time and for most coaches who don't play much, this can be very difficult.

On coaching price, it's a supply and demand equation. You can't put a "worthy" on anything in a free market. People pay thousands for 1 comic books because they think it's worth it. If enough people think 200+/hr is worth it then that's how much your poker coaching is worth.

It's this + a coach deciding how much they want to coach. I could cut my rate by 50% and prob make more money coaching than I do now,

Hello,
Good video. I need an expert opinion. I've taken my first set of lessons over the past 6 weeks and I really learned a lot from my coach. But, the after lesson communication hasn't been the greatest. Although he stressed how available he was to review HH and SNG and that communication after our lessons finished was definitely part of the package, it typically took 3+ days to get an email response. While I wasn't expecting instant response times, within a couple of days would have been easier to apply to the question(s) at hand.
You mentioned in the video that some of your students that you're least happy with tend to be the ones that are looking for more confirmation of their own ideas and that if the student was doing more talking than the coach, he probably wasn't a good student. With these being my first set of real lessons I had a ton of questions that I wanted to get a professional opinion on (habits, theories, what-if scenarios). Some pertaining to the lesson at hand and others on broader topics in the poker landscape.
I definitely don't want to be a bad student or "that guy", so is there a balance between asking too many questions of your coach? I mean, I don't think I was trying to prove the way I had been playing, but moreso, wanted some clarity about the way I played so I wouldn't continue making the same mistakes I'd been making.
It's been a week and a half since our last lesson and I haven't got the video of our last session yet. I've sent him 3 emails and don't want to seem like a stalker. I'm not sure if he's not responsive due to me being a bad student or maybe I just misinterpreted our agreement.
Any constuctive advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

Hello,
Good video. I need an expert opinion. I've taken my first set of lessons over the past 6 weeks and I really learned a lot from my coach. But, the after lesson communication hasn't been the greatest. Although he stressed how available he was to review HH and SNG and that communication after our lessons finished was definitely part of the package, it typically took 3+ days to get an email response. While I wasn't expecting instant response times, within a couple of days would have been easier to apply to the question(s) at hand.
You mentioned in the video that some of your students that you're least happy with tend to be the ones that are looking for more confirmation of their own ideas and that if the student was doing more talking than the coach, he probably wasn't a good student. With these being my first set of real lessons I had a ton of questions that I wanted to get a professional opinion on (habits, theories, what-if scenarios). Some pertaining to the lesson at hand and others on broader topics in the poker landscape.
I definitely don't want to be a bad student or "that guy", so is there a balance between asking too many questions of your coach? I mean, I don't think I was trying to prove the way I had been playing, but moreso, wanted some clarity about the way I played so I wouldn't continue making the same mistakes I'd been making.
It's been a week and a half since our last lesson and I haven't got the video of our last session yet. I've sent him 3 emails and don't want to seem like a stalker. I'm not sure if he's not responsive due to me being a bad student or maybe I just misinterpreted our agreement.
Any constuctive advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

It's a really tough question to answer because the details of the actual back and forth are key. What exactly he said, what exactly you said. In general, as long as you're letting the coach finish his sentences/thoughts before you ask the next question you should be ok. If you find yourself constantly following up with rebuttals phrased as questions or repeating the original question in a new way there's a decent chance that you are "that guy."

However, if this is the only coach you've worked with there's also a decent chance that you just aren't getting great answers to your questions which could lead you to asking "too many."

With respect to the email response time, I would def want quicker responses, but without knowing more specific details it's not a situation where I could say with much confidence that one of you is "in the wrong."

I would encourage everyone to not buy packages without one lesson first and not hire someone at all without at least one good recommendation.

I absolutely agree with the taking one lesson first approach. I certainly don't want to give the impression that he was a bad guy/coach, I just want to get the most out of the experience. I appreciate your time.

Thanks

Guys would you recommend to get coaching, or harass great players so much that they budge, add you on skype and start talking poker with you?

It's free, more personal, and you get a friend rather than being in commercial student teacher relationship.
And even high-stakes pros need friends

Guys would you recommend to get coaching, or harass great players so much that they budge, add you on skype and start talking poker with you?

It's free, more personal, and you get a friend rather than being in commercial student teacher relationship.
And even high-stakes pros need friends

funny

funny

It wasnt a joke

Or does your intuition automatically tell you advice=money and you autorefuse requests from people that want to talk poker and you even find the idea laughable?

Like if I'd ask you to add me on Skype because I am your fan and I think we have similar phylosophy towards poker would you seriously tell me to fuckoff (i na polite way) or want money first?

I thought it was meant to be a joke as well as I couldn't imagine becoming friends/poker buddies with anyone via harassment. By going the path you described, it doesn't sound like a respectful approach and one based on an interest of friendship, more of an interest of free services.

I'm sure if natural interactions lead to the natural formation of friendship, a monetary exchange wouldn't be expected at all.

My question is, what are the intentions or aims of coaching, in terms of wasting time or using time up coaching to gain an income versus just playing poker to make more money?

Is coaching something you guys get satisfaction out of over purely playing to make money?

If money isnt the issue, and its clearly not for some, why coach?

I can't speak for others, but I know I primarily don't coach for financial reasons, but also don't play poker for purely financial reasons either. I enjoy interacting with and educating people that have enthusiasm for the games I play. As the information I provide will hopefully lead to financial gain for the student, my time itself has value and the time spent gaining the information I provide has value, money does change hands.

My question is, what are the intentions or aims of coaching, in terms of wasting time or using time up coaching to gain an income versus just playing poker to make more money?

Is coaching something you guys get satisfaction out of over purely playing to make money?

If money isnt the issue, and its clearly not for some, why coach?

-When you grind hundreds of thousands of hands, it's nice to have something other than playing that is enjoyable and profitable.
- Coaching forces you to think more clearly and concisely.
- It is a challenge.
- It is free of variance.

It wasnt a joke

Or does your intuition automatically tell you advice=money and you autorefuse requests from people that want to talk poker and you even find the idea laughable?

Like if I'd ask you to add me on Skype because I am your fan and I think we have similar phylosophy towards poker would you seriously tell me to fuckoff (i na polite way) or want money first?

I would have thought that watching the episode would answer the question. Specifically the "I don't add people on Skype until they pay me for coaching" part.

Can you imagine the amount of peoople who would be adding the likes of jk3a on skype and start asking them poker questions if he started accepting friend requests from randoms? They would be getting hassled pretty much 24/7 and essentially doling out free coaching.

I would think that "poker friendships" would have to have some sort of mutual benefits and not be entirely one way.

So he would tell me to fuckoff, cool to know
Highstakes pros that don't coach aren't always like that you know, especially when you post on the same forums you'd be surprised how many are willing to chat and give you advice.

thats very true
we have a dutch pokerforum with 2 full tilt pro 1 of them is still very active in the forums
the other (rob hollink) used to be also. but isnt anymore

but always willing to talk poker even with the micro stakers

Well...

It's not like the DC coaches don't spend a ton of time on the forums giving free advice...

They're not sitting in their mansions sipping Kristal and laughing at us little folk.

They're not sitting in their mansions sipping Kristal and laughing at us little folk.

Really? I always imagined that's what Krantz has been doing over the last few years.

Well...

It's not like the DC coaches don't spend a ton of time on the forums giving free advice...

They're not sitting in their mansions sipping Kristal and laughing at us little folk.

thats true and i didnt mean it in a bad way
dc is also much larger then that dutch site so posting in every thread would be a 24/7 job here

It wasnt a joke

Or does your intuition automatically tell you advice=money and you autorefuse requests from people that want to talk poker and you even find the idea laughable?

Like if I'd ask you to add me on Skype because I am your fan and I think we have similar phylosophy towards poker would you seriously tell me to fuckoff (i na polite way) or want money first?

I think it was the implication in your post via the tone/wording that you'd try to hammer away on good players until they given in and give you some free gold that made it so few would take your post seriously. I think we made it clear that $ is not the primary objective for why we coach, but it is an objective. Also given the lengthy and detailed responses we often give on dc, it should also reinforce that idea. Like most things in life, I'm willing to help people if they need it, I'm just not willing to be taken advantage of and I think the wording of your post made it sound that way (and therefore must be a joke)

It wasnt a joke

I knew it wasn't a joke. That's why it is funny.

Hilarious to assume that people would want to give you free advice or be your internet friend after you 'harass...so much that they budge.'

And to recommend THAT over coaching....I mean ffs.

Thanks to both responses.

Since joining DC, what i have most realised is the ultra high level of thinking you guys have put into playing poker. This must have taken a lot of time and effort and of course intelligence to achieve, so you deserve every penny you get.

Nice video. I've also found students usually tend to be unwilling to send hands or questions in between sessions, although I guess I've also been guilty of this with my coaches. I don't know how you would handle a lot of IMs/e-mails having a lot of students though.

I do have a question although it's somewhat vague. I guess there comes a point after a lot of coaching where you start to regard your student as more of a colleague or friend, at which point it starts to feel awkward to keep charging him for talking poker and stuff. I mean it happened with you guys, right? So just curious about how that goes down, I guess you just come out and say it, or just stop charging the student?

Nice video. I've also found students usually tend to be unwilling to send hands or questions in between sessions, although I guess I've also been guilty of this with my coaches. I don't know how you would handle a lot of IMs/e-mails having a lot of students though.

I do have a question although it's somewhat vague. I guess there comes a point after a lot of coaching where you start to regard your student as more of a colleague or friend, at which point it starts to feel awkward to keep charging him for talking poker and stuff. I mean it happened with you guys, right? So just curious about how that goes down, I guess you just come out and say it, or just stop charging the student?

i don't recall us ever really having a conversation explicitly about it, i think it just became clear after a little while to me that there was a lot to be gained by both of us from discussing things. Sure, even when coaching noobs there is some benefits for the coach but in cases like this it didn't take long before I realized that the knowledge transfer wasn't one sided. I think it's one of those things where you just sort of "know" and it isn't an issue. We would (and still do) fairly regularly sweat each other to try to de-tilt and/or get opinions on how to adjust to different things certain opponents are doing etc. Getting these sort of poker friendships and contacts is pretty crucial to moving up the food chain imo.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Guess that could be some kind of motivation for students to be quite active and prepare themselves for sessions so the coach benefits more from the discussion and eventually it might be easier for them to relate to each other as colleagues, instead of just 'clowning' around. Good video, always enjoy watching content from you guys.

That's what I meant by harass, not anything intrusive by e.g. send a few messages to a person you got stuff in common or that you are a fan of. I mean what is there to lose? I know I wouldn't mind to have a devoted person that has a respect for my game trying to discuss poker. I got a couple people on my Skype who are good enough to not need income from coaching and vids at all (and do it just for fun with people they like, for free) and I would never ask them trivial spots. This one guy I have tremendous respect for and I have read everything he has ever written added me on Skype and I had tons of input and keep everything in a file and it would not even cross my mind to bother him with trivial shit that adds 0 value or creates no discussions...Forums or Pokerstrategy hand evaluation are good enough for that and I just ask him when I need to check on my direction or on new ideas or game changing more complex hands. And most people from the Portuguese poker prodigy to Swedish ballers and many other people I know got great through that sort of long term (free) relationship like this and playing a million hands, not really buying imited packages of coaching.

doc.lemon,

You opened with...

Guys would you recommend to get coaching, or harass great players so much that they budge, add you on skype and start talking poker with you?

...on a poker training site forum in the thread of a video about poker coaching practices.

After being met with resistance, you employ the age old arguing technique known as "well that's not what I meant." This is a commonly used technique used by confused girlfriends when faced with overwhelming logic during arguments about why the couple wouldn't spend every free moment together.

You then insult all coaches and video producers with this gem:

I got a couple people on my Skype who are good enough to not need income from coaching and vids at all

In the future, I'd recommend that you word your posts more carefully.

jk3a (why are you adding my nick now, is that adding emphasis or? seriously I would like to know I posted right above you and you didn't use it before. Your explanation will be much appreciated!)

Perception is a tricky thing. I don't get why I would suggest using an offensive invasive behavior to start a relationship that needs to be based on at least emotional benefits and positive feelings for the better player. I understand that the wording could have suggested that and for that I apologize, and I had the Portuguese guy or my approaches in mind (read his story fyi) and positive harassment when writing that. It appears that you have perceived this as a personal attack and selectively responded to parts of my posts and interpreted them literally. That's ok, I would just recommend to not make snap judgments. I know what I meant and I repeated it in the second post, I would appreciate if you could not disregard what I say completely

The second statement....well that is true sorry, Giggy or Niman said it countless times, and I bet WoT's situation is the same, their hourly at the tables is larger than total money from coaching and videos when you include preparation for vids and post coaching, and unlike many other people they don't have any trouble with putting in volume and are maniacs who still get the same excitement from playing 12h sessions as they did when they started, and the things they learn from students are very limited and the learning impact is lower than when they actually play... Much like adding enthusiastic people on their Skype and chatting with them and giving them advice, they do those things not because they need money but because its fun and allows them to socialise and feel good for giving back to the community (and to amuse themselves and others when making videos in the case of Giggy ;o).

So thank you for your recommendation, I will make sure I will not to require my readers to have to interpret my literal statements. Now let's get some serious discussion going, and why don't you e.g. tell us when was the last time you paid for coaching from somebody external that you aren't in contact with and compare the benefits of formal paid student-coach sessions over informal cooperation such as that of yourself and WoT (lack of bias? Paid coach has to make time? You can dictate and ask him for trivial or crazy spots without feel of emotion like embarrassment or wasting his time? You don't have to give and can just take and not waste time with chitchat? go nuts )

Thank you for your evaluation, and please don't be offended

LemOn

Guys would you recommend to get coaching, or harass great players so much that they budge, add you on skype and start talking poker with you?

I don't get why I would suggest using an offensive invasive behavior to start a relationship

Yea, we didn't get it either.

I will make sure I will not to require my readers to have to interpret my literal statements.

I literally have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

In this fun thread that you posted five months ago you "ask"

I was just wondering what players like that does DC have?

What are the top 6max instructors with booming longterm and recent 6max PTR whose graphs look simmilar to the mentioned guys that are consistently crushing with high volumes and are currently actively making vids on DC?

My response in the thread included the following...

Doc.lemon started this thread not to really ask a question but to make a point. I'm certain he had already done his homework. It would have been much better for everyone if he posted in a different format...i.e."idea for new coach(s) at DC," but it's understandable why he choose to communicate this way.

The same thing has happened here. When you originally "asked" whether Aaron and I recommend trying to befriend good players or pay for coaching, you weren't really asking because you wanted our opinion.

Similar to your previous thread, you are indirectly suggesting one option over an alternative in the form of a question. When I said 'it's understandable why he chose to communicate this way,' I simply meant that it makes you come across as much less of a troll in your original posts if you try to make your point in question form. This is also very similar to what you're doing here:

Now let's get some serious discussion going, and why don't you e.g. tell us when was the last time you paid for coaching from somebody external that you aren't in contact with and compare the benefits of formal paid student-coach sessions over informal cooperation such as that of yourself and WoT (lack of bias? Paid coach has to make time? You can dictate and ask him for trivial or crazy spots without feel of emotion like embarrassment or wasting his time? You don't have to give and can just take and not waste time with chitchat? go nuts )

So obviously you feel that befriending good players is better than formal coaching. Like you said perception is a tricky thing. You perceive that befriending is better. This is definitely true for you and probably for some other people as well.

While it may be possible for you to get poker advice for free, it's simply not an either or situation. There's certainly nothing wrong with politely trying to befriend a good player and get free advice, but that wouldn't work in most situations for a number of reasons.

I literally have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

That's because you're trying to interpret it, he already said this is not required of you.

That's because you're trying to interpret it, he already said this is not required of you.

Touche.

Is it possible to also offer here a MP3-version (audio only) as it is often offered regards to videos where are slides which are not so important to get the key points?
That would be cool^^

Old Poker Coaching FAQ thread: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/19/topics/7346