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Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by Entity (Mid Stakes)

http://www.deucescracked.com/videos/1022-Episode-Three?seek=2427

dont like the turn-semibluff-raise,the turn hammers my flop-c/r range + i expect u to rebluff the turn there a lot with like JT/hearts given our dynamic, so u have basically no FE and will get rebluffed/value3bet a lot and have a tough time folding. if u wanna rebluff i like waiting for the river

Time Link to 00:16:30

I don't understand the analysis of the AK hand whatsoever. I pretty much never would 3 bet the turn here against a winning player, to say its standard scares me a lot. Also given you *do* think its standard (which also implies you'd play AA this way), how could villain be wrong to cap Q9? I really didn't understand Rob's comment that if you call the cap its because you think you have the best hand, I would think we never have the best hand but sometimes have 3-5 outs.

Villain was definitely thinking about checking behind river, not slowrolling you fwiw. I told him given you might play AK/AA this way its an easy bet

Time Link to 00:02:00

Not sure how I feel about this turn bet, hate the calldown though. What hand is he bluffing with? Any draw raises flop or turn, he has almost no ace highs that miss that board and if he does they probably check down. Pot is fairly small. Eep.

Time Link to 00:07:10

I almost never bet this turn and if I did I'd probably barrel river if I felt I was up against a thinking player.

Time Link to 00:12:14

This seems like a super easy cap. He 3 bet the hand before with A6s, heck you guys 3 bet MI2 with A9s vs a hijack open raise OOP, why wouldn't he 3 bet ATs on the button? I think his range is like A8s, AJo, 66, KQ, T9s.

I don't understand the analysis of the AK hand whatsoever. I pretty much never would 3 bet the turn here against a winning player, to say its standard scares me a lot. Also given you *do* think its standard (which also implies you'd play AA this way), how could villain be wrong to cap Q9? I really didn't understand Rob's comment that if you call the cap its because you think you have the best hand, I would think we never have the best hand but sometimes have 3-5 outs.

Villain was definitely thinking about checking behind river, not slowrolling you fwiw. I told him given you might play AK/AA this way its an easy bet

If we'd play AK, AA, KK, QQ, KQ, 88, 99, AJss, AQss, ATss, and JTs like this, we've got 18 combos of hands he beats but have 8 outs against him and 23 combos of hands he's behind and drawing to anywhere from 0-4 outs against, so I don't see how you can argue that capping Q9 is good, especially when you're getting checkraised on the river a ton and obviously paying off. You have to severely diminish our range, removing any combos of JTs as well as limiting our pocket pair 3-betting frequency from the BB to make this ok -- keep in mind that unless you're prone to bet-folding on broadway board textures you're actually risking 2 to win 1 when you cap in position here, because you should be getting checkraised more often than bet into when your opponent has a very strong hand.

Anyway like I said in the video, if you're 3-betting you should be folding to a cap, and 3-betting isn't standard for me. My typical line is to call and either c/r or c/c the river depending on how much I respect the player. I think call and c/r river is better than 3-bet by far. Chuck obviously thought he had a dynamic where a 3-bet is justified but I don't see that dynamic often given how I play in the BB.

The point of saying "if you have 5 outs you have the best hand" is because I think it's really bad to be capping Q9 here (which you actually have 8 outs vs. and not 5 outs), so I was using a bit of hyperbole to say that "if you think you have to call because you think you have 5 outs" (given that you're only getting 11:1 on a call), then you really need to count on your opponent being functionally bad in that spot.

Basically I agree that the 3-bet is bad but I disagree with everything else you wrote (re: 5 outs vs. 8 outs, weighted outs in this spot [I think you'll have less than 4 weighted outs vs. the vast majority of people in this spot]).

Rob

I almost never bet this turn and if I did I'd probably barrel river if I felt I was up against a thinking player.

This guy wasn't playing like a thinking player at all, I think a bet there is 100% fine vs. him and the way he had been playing as while he pairs up occasionally, he's the type who was peeling the flop really loose and will be calling with dominated draws like 8T.

Vs. a thinking player it's a different story, obv, but no reason to go there on this hand.

Rob

This seems like a super easy cap. He 3 bet the hand before with A6s, heck you guys 3 bet MI2 with A9s vs a hijack open raise OOP, why wouldn't he 3 bet ATs on the button? I think his range is like A8s, AJo, 66, KQ, T9s.

It's a parlay, UTG raise vs. lol's 3-bet, and the main reason for folding is because of UTG+the 3bet, not necessarily the fact that it was 3bet itself. At that point in time we thought taterka was passive and had fairly good reason to think it, which means we'd think that LOL's range is tighter than you think, and well, you get it...

Rob

Not sure how I feel about this turn bet, hate the calldown though. What hand is he bluffing with? Any draw raises flop or turn, he has almost no ace highs that miss that board and if he does they probably check down. Pot is fairly small. Eep.

I don't like the turn bet so much either, but I'd fold like I said in the vid -- I don't think he bets enough Ace highs to make your hand show much profit here.

Rob

Time Link to 00:19:43

Folddddddddddd

Folddddddddddd

I think the pot's too big here. It's not a live game and you are playing MI who does know how to make thin value c/r's and doesn't always cap AK OOP. Yeah, you're behind a FUCKTON, but the fact that there are only 8 combos of AJ means he has to have Kx (KJ?, 12) or AK (6) effectively 0% of the time. I think this would be a bad fold even though both of us know it's very thin.

Rob

Time Link to 00:24:07

Whoa you folded 98ss from hijack??!?

Time Link to 00:29:40

Right table, Q4 hand. I think this is a super clear turn CR, if ever there was a semibluff this has to be it. As played I think CR river is clearly the best play.

Right table, Q4 hand. I think this is a super clear turn CR, if ever there was a semibluff this has to be it. As played I think CR river is clearly the best play.

Turn c/r isn't bad with intention to barrel, but I think c/r river is pretty bad vs this player.

Time Link to 00:37:50

His river bluff is real bad but I think saying he should check/call is real bad too. He should check/fold or rarely checkraise.

Time Link to 00:45:45

I wait til turn here usually, dry flop, vs UTG solid range, and a lot of my range on this board is fairly weak showdownable stuff that needs protecting. I CR river also probably.

If we'd play AK, AA, KK, QQ, KQ, 88, 99, AJss, AQss, ATss, and JTs like this, we've got 18 combos of hands he beats but have 8 outs against him and 23 combos of hands he's behind and drawing to anywhere from 0-4 outs against, so I don't see how you can argue that capping Q9 is good, especially when you're getting checkraised on the river a ton and obviously paying off. You have to severely diminish our range, removing any combos of JTs as well as limiting our pocket pair 3-betting frequency from the BB to make this ok -- keep in mind that unless you're prone to bet-folding on broadway board textures you're actually risking 2 to win 1 when you cap in position here, because you should be getting checkraised more often than bet into when your opponent has a very strong hand.

Anyway like I said in the video, if you're 3-betting you should be folding to a cap, and 3-betting isn't standard for me. My typical line is to call and either c/r or c/c the river depending on how much I respect the player. I think call and c/r river is better than 3-bet by far. Chuck obviously thought he had a dynamic where a 3-bet is justified but I don't see that dynamic often given how I play in the BB.

The point of saying "if you have 5 outs you have the best hand" is because I think it's really bad to be capping Q9 here (which you actually have 8 outs vs. and not 5 outs), so I was using a bit of hyperbole to say that "if you think you have to call because you think you have 5 outs" (given that you're only getting 11:1 on a call), then you really need to count on your opponent being functionally bad in that spot.

Basically I agree that the 3-bet is bad but I disagree with everything else you wrote (re: 5 outs vs. 8 outs, weighted outs in this spot [I think you'll have less than 4 weighted outs vs. the vast majority of people in this spot]).

Rob

I think you are miscounting combos first off. The hands we beat that you said are: AK, AA, AJss, AQss, ATss. That is 12 + 6 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 21 combos we beat but have 8 outs against us.
Hands that beat us are: KK, QQ, KQ, 88, 99 which is = 3 + 1 (we hold Q9 so there are only two Qs left in deck) + 6 + 3 + 1 = 14 combos of hands that beat us where we have between 0-4 outs.

In addition to that, I wasn't sure Chuck would 3 bet all his KQ hands out of the BB in this spot (considering he said AKo was "close" tells me he sometimes just calls here with some big card hands and even if he always reraises AK that doesn't mean KQo is a standard reraise for him). If he only reraises KQs then he only has 2 combos of KQ, making the range 21 combos for and 10 against.

Also I disagree that Q9 must bet/call river, bet/fold seems far superior so I don't think you are necessarily laying 2:1 on the turn cap. Plus he can just check behind on the worst rivers for his hand, saving a bet when hero goes for the river CR that you are saying is standard. So in a sense he loses 0 when behind but wins an extra bet when ahead on all those river cards. You can't have it both ways here.

Finally I think if we *do* think 3 betting the turn is profitable with AK than folding to a cap is bad because we should *not* be up against a range that is so strong we aren't getting the right price to improve. We are getting 11:1, his range has to include all JT (that didn't raise flop) and sets (that didn't raise flop) and not every 2 pair combo, which seems significantly more likely to me, to make folding to a cap the best play.

I agree with you that I just don't 3 bet there generally. So yeah, I agree with you 3 betting is bad and still disagree with everything else you said

I wait til turn here usually, dry flop, vs UTG solid range, and a lot of my range on this board is fairly weak showdownable stuff that needs protecting. I CR river also probably.

I don't like c/r on river here, I think a lot of his range will be too weak to bet, let alone bet-call, but he's showdown bound pretty clearly. The issue I have with waiting for the turn vs. an EP raiser is that I don't really have a super wide peeling range on this flop given the positional dynamic, so I just c/r now. I know you peel a bit lighter (though I'm not sure that's correct in this spot) so you could probably be fine either way.

Rob

I don't like c/r on river here, I think a lot of his range will be too weak to bet, let alone bet-call, but he's showdown bound pretty clearly. The issue I have with waiting for the turn vs. an EP raiser is that I don't really have a super wide peeling range on this flop given the positional dynamic, so I just c/r now. I know you peel a bit lighter (though I'm not sure that's correct in this spot) so you could probably be fine either way.

Rob

Huh? Weren't you the one in the video who suggested an "off tempo river CR"? I don't have a super wide peeling range here either but the hands I peel are all weak showdownable hands (some Ax, some small pps, some Tx) and I don't think many of those are profitable flop CRs vs an UTG range.

I don't mean to insult any other LHE instructors as you're all excellent, but I honestly think this series would be better if it was DeathDonkey paired with a different person each week.

DD is great at driving analysis and can't ever make it through 5 minutes without having an in-depth argument with someone on video. Which is awesome if he's arguing with Oink or Entity obv.

I do love this series as is, though, so it's really just a suggestion for future stand-alones or a series, I guess.

And I also suppose that this makes me a "Donkette?"

Interesting Video! Fun for me to watch the videos when I am in them playing a lot of hands....

Turn c/r isn't bad with intention to barrel, but I think c/r river is pretty bad vs this player.

What about that player made you say that? You saw him make a loose payoff earlier? First off this is my standard way of playing every Kx and Jx in my range, so I have to have some bluffs here. Next is that he doesn't necessarily have anything and this prevents us from getting bluffed. Third is its obviously +metagame.

I think you are miscounting combos first off. The hands we beat that you said are: AK, AA, AJss, AQss, ATss. That is 12 + 6 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 21 combos we beat but have 8 outs against us.
Hands that beat us are: KK, QQ, KQ, 88, 99 which is = 3 + 1 (we hold Q9 so there are only two Qs left in deck) + 6 + 3 + 1 = 14 combos of hands that beat us where we have between 0-4 outs.

In addition to that, I wasn't sure Chuck would 3 bet all his KQ hands out of the BB in this spot (considering he said AKo was "close" tells me he sometimes just calls here with some big card hands and even if he always reraises AK that doesn't mean KQo is a standard reraise for him). If he only reraises KQs then he only has 2 combos of KQ, making the range 21 combos for and 10 against.

Also I disagree that Q9 must bet/call river, bet/fold seems far superior so I don't think you are necessarily laying 2:1 on the turn cap. Plus he can just check behind on the worst rivers for his hand, saving a bet when hero goes for the river CR that you are saying is standard. So in a sense he loses 0 when behind but wins an extra bet when ahead on all those river cards. You can't have it both ways here.

Finally I think if we *do* think 3 betting the turn is profitable with AK than folding to a cap is bad because we should *not* be up against a range that is so strong we aren't getting the right price to improve. We are getting 11:1, his range has to include all JT (that didn't raise flop) and sets (that didn't raise flop) and not every 2 pair combo, which seems significantly more likely to me, to make folding to a cap the best play.

I agree with you that I just don't 3 bet there generally. So yeah, I agree with you 3 betting is bad and still disagree with everything else you said

Yeah I was looking at the river, thinking the spade flush already got there. We can take out those hands, and I made a mistake on 99, saying 3 combos when it's 1. Now I think it's less of an error but still a pretty fundamental error to be capping with Q9 in BTN's position.

Random Points: generally speaking I think the decision for Chuck to be 3-betting KQo out of the BB when he says "AKo is close" has more to do with whether he's generally 3-betting a LOT less currently, or 3-betting a LOT more. It's not strict hand value as much as it is what mode he's in. That said, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and discount KQ and JTs from his range by 50%, it's still going to be a bit thin.

Once we agree on the ranges, it's 18 combos we beat that have 8 outs against us and 3+1+3 (KQ discounted)+3+1+2 (JTs discounted) for 13 combos, so while we're ahead > 50%, we're still risking slightly more than 1:1 on a bet, because the vast majority of the time the river will blank, and we'll be betting for value and paying off a checkraise. So even if we say we need something like 60% to account for the fact that a good player will c/r the river often and the BB's weighted outs are going to be 2x what our outs are when we're behind, we don't have it in this spot. My personal feelings are that the ranges are a bit wider in Chuck's preflop range, mostly from having played against and watched him in the past, so I think it's much closer to 18:15 or 18:16 than 18:13, leaving us ahead of his combos about 53-54% of the time, which is only enough if you're capable of bet-folding the river and being correct and comfortable doing it always.

Anyway we both agree that we don't like a turn 3-bet and I think you agree that a turn cap with Q9 is an error (less of an error in position but still an error). The nice thing about breaking this down is that it made me a lot more comfortable thinking that bet-call, check-call is better in this instance than bet-call, check-raise-fold. The presence of JT really sucks for our hand here, even if he can have QTs and KJ and KT in his range, but I guess it gets a lot closer as his river c/r payoff frequencies increase.

Yay poker.

Rob

What about that player made you say that? You saw him make a loose payoff earlier? First off this is my standard way of playing every Kx and Jx in my range, so I have to have some bluffs here. Next is that he doesn't necessarily have anything and this prevents us from getting bluffed. Third is its obviously +metagame.

I've played quite a bit against him in past series and have c/r'd him for value on the river and been paid off pretty damned thin. Maybe not fair to be able to take that bit of knowledge over to this comment but as weird as his line is I think he's pretty likely to have a hand like 87 here and bet-call it on the river. I don't worry so much about balance in this spot so I just try to take the most +EV line I can think of, which for me here is c/f.

I wouldn't have bet-called the flop with this particular hand though.

Rob

Huh? Weren't you the one in the video who suggested an "off tempo river CR"? I don't have a super wide peeling range here either but the hands I peel are all weak showdownable hands (some Ax, some small pps, some Tx) and I don't think many of those are profitable flop CRs vs an UTG range.

Yeah I don't think lots of those hands you peel with are profitable c/c's on the flop vs an UTG range. Just saying my range is mostly strong when I continue so I tend to be willing to get value in early vs. broadway overcards.

I definitely would consider an off tempo c/r in this spot (as I guess I did in the vid), I just don't think it's quite profitable enough given how few of his hands will bet-call. It's definitely close though, especially given how many hands I c/r for value on the flop, then bet for value on the turn, then have to c/f on the river.

Rob

I don't mean to insult any other LHE instructors as you're all excellent, but I honestly think this series would be better if it was DeathDonkey paired with a different person each week.

DD is great at driving analysis and can't ever make it through 5 minutes without having an in-depth argument with someone on video. Which is awesome if he's arguing with Oink or Entity obv.

I do love this series as is, though, so it's really just a suggestion for future stand-alones or a series, I guess.

And I also suppose that this makes me a "Donkette?"

Unfortunately then donkey wouldn't be making killer threads. I do plan on forcing him to make some videos with me soon.

All in all I wasn't too thrilled with how I played in this session and it comes across in the comments. I think it does well for the LHE content though and didn't think it was a bad video or anything. I think Rob did a good job needling me in the right spots and it made for some good discussion.

I would certainly take away the turn 3-bet w/AK though TPTK would be the nuts vs. villain in a few spots earlier in the session (and it other sessions since) the board texture leaves very little wiggle room and is a very "call down"-esque board.

tfufu I think your comment has a ton of merit and i rarely will semi-bluff there but I've been experimenting with it a bit with very limited success.

yeah i am LoLDnkaments in case u dont know. i dunno what i thought in the K4 hand that u guys mention, probably TP_lol

oh and i just checked, we didnt play any sessions since


oh i can just post this hand:
Poker Stars $10/$20 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 195663
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BTN with K 4
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls

Flop: (4.5 SB) 2 K Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps!, Hero calls

Turn: (6.25 BB) 4 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls

River: (10.25 BB) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

Final Pot: 12.25 BB
BB shows 2 2 (three of a kind, Deuces)
Hero shows K 4 (two pair, Kings and Fours)
BB wins 12.1 BB
(Rake: $3.00)

i must've thought u have lots of draws/semibluffs in your range and figured it was enough to 3bet+crying call. turn raise is thinish and river is std i think

Wow I thought you had a different stars name

Edit: actually nothing to do with name, more avatar

And that is def the hand that rung out in my head when I talked myself into a 3-bet though my comments @ top pair being the nuts vs. you no longer apply lol. Damn my 3-bet is worse now lol. But it's pretty good vs. the other villain!

Anyway I don't think I can 3-bet you on the turn. I think the turn raise is SUPER thin, I can't think of much I have that you beat there beside K2/Q2.

I also like call and raise brick better than 3-bet the flop in your shoes with the K4 because you aren't folding much there so on 5 turn you're in a little trouble vs. my range no?

Stupid stars and their avatars. I don't think of you as lol donkaments I think of you as the poo flinging guy.

5 star vid + thread

And that is def the hand that rung out in my head when I talked myself into a 3-bet though my comments @ top pair being the nuts vs. you no longer apply lol. Damn my 3-bet is worse now lol. But it's pretty good vs. the other villain!

Anyway I don't think I can 3-bet you on the turn. I think the turn raise is SUPER thin, I can't think of much I have that you beat there beside K2/Q2.

I also like call and raise brick better than 3-bet the flop in your shoes with the K4 because you aren't folding much there so on 5 turn you're in a little trouble vs. my range no?

Stupid stars and their avatars. I don't think of you as lol donkaments I think of you as the poo flinging guy.

yeah i was raise-folding there with the K4, i dont know wtf i thought when i 3bet the flop, dont like it at all

also i resent the implication that im not the poo flinging guy!

Time Link to 00:01:56

I think threebetting A9s there is very marginal, by doing that you are also saying that if I raised from UTG you would threebet me with A9s on the button? On the turn the play is check fold. On the river the play is check/fold. I was unclear of what hand you put me on in that hand??

Time Link to 00:02:50

The way you played this hand are you calling a 3bet on the turn and calling down UI? Also, if you get check/raised on the turn are you calling down?

Time Link to 00:05:13

Why are you raising the turn? What are you going to do if you get threebet call down UI? or fold river? I don't know how you can play this hand any other way that just straight call down

Time Link to 00:07:13

I would check behind turn and fold unimproved. I don't see how he could bet into you on the river without having you beat if your hand doesn't improve on the river card.

Time Link to 00:13:43

I don't agree with this turn bet as a standard play. I think checking behind is better. Its not a value bet, value bets are bets where you can call raises and call down. If you think you have the best hand I think it's far better to check behind turn and call river UI , but i wouldn't do that either.

Right table, Q4 hand. I think this is a super clear turn CR, if ever there was a semibluff this has to be it. As played I think CR river is clearly the best play.

I would disagree vs. this specific opponent. A cr vs the majority of players in this spot would be a good spot. However, as you may have noticed this guy has called down Chuck /w K high, /w bottom pair, and other weak holdings, I honestly do not think we have enough fold equity vs. this guy.

Time Link to 00:14:51

I would call the flop and try to improve blind versus blind

Time Link to 00:15:05

why are you folding JTo there?

Time Link to 00:16:53

this is an easy call. yeah it is close whether or not you are ahead or behind on the turn, but if you are ahead you are only slightly ahead and if you are behind you are more likely way behind. just call down. all this conversation about this hand is a waste of time in my opinion.

Time Link to 00:19:37

hu this would be a very easy call down, but multiway on the river its an easy fold versus anybody. If your opponent would have to be a lunatic to make your hand a winner, you should fold

marchinvest is good

Time Link to 00:23:27

if you get checked raised on that flop i don't think you have enough to continue.. i could be wrong but only hands i am checkraising are aces and maybe some extremely high pps not sure if i am even check raising those

Time Link to 00:24:05

you fold 89s? I would raise this UTG automatically

Time Link to 00:26:16

I don't understand this play at all. If you are going to limp than either I would check raise or check call, and regardless you need to see the turn card, just folding on the flop seems crazy......

yeah i was raise-folding there with the K4, i dont know wtf i thought when i 3bet the flop, dont like it at all

also i resent the implication that im not the poo flinging guy!

No you ARE the poo fling guy

Time Link to 00:33:48

Why would you threebet QTo from a HJ raise on the button? Why would you barrel turn? Why would you barrel river? What do you put me on that any of that would make sense?

Time Link to 00:33:57

On the right table with A9s i don't understand betting the turn. I would check behind and call almost any river. As played you made the right play by calling the river, but I don't think this call is profitable versus most players i guess i could be wrong though

Time Link to 00:40:34

just call the turn and fold the river UI. Raising the turn and betting the river is lighting money on fire.

Time Link to 00:42:56

I don't agree with betting the turn with QTo, i woudl prefer a check/fold

Time Link to 00:43:10

I hate this turn raise and river bet. What are you doing if you get threebet on the turn? What are you doing if you get check raised on river? why not make your life easier and just call this hand down

Time Link to 00:43:59

just call turn and river. Only raise the turn when you still have the overpair. When you raise your hand on the turn when there are overs for value than you get stuck in spots like this which put you in difficult scenarios and allow you to get either bluffed off the best hand or give too much action.

I think threebetting A9s there is very marginal, by doing that you are also saying that if I raised from UTG you would threebet me with A9s on the button? On the turn the play is check fold. On the river the play is check/fold. I was unclear of what hand you put me on in that hand??

I don't think the 3-bet with A9s is all that marginal vs. your range, but I think the turn/river play are pretty suspect.

Rob

Time Link to 00:45:17

your calling an UTG raise out of BB with 47s???? multiway yes, hu absolutely not the right play

Time Link to 00:47:59

k8s is a raise preflop in that spot i think

Why are you raising the turn? What are you going to do if you get threebet call down UI? or fold river? I don't know how you can play this hand any other way that just straight call down

Raising the turn for straight value b/c he expects LOL at that point to call down with all of his ace highs and probably some KQ type hands as well. Mostly dynamic between them, but calling flop raising turn betting river there isn't as thin as a standard as you might think, and it protects your semibluffs in that spot as well. LOL's got a pretty wide range in that spot (as you can see raising T4o in the SB vs a good BB) and a lot of his range is going to want to continue to the turn raise. I'd suspect Chuck is calling down a 3-bet because of their dynamic, but I can't say for sure.

Rob

just call turn and river. Only raise the turn when you still have the overpair. When you raise your hand on the turn when there are overs for value than you get stuck in spots like this which put you in difficult scenarios and allow you to get either bluffed off the best hand or give too much action.

Wow I super super super disagree here. LOL was capable of A) rebluffing, B) 3-betting in spots too light, and C) calling down super thin on this board texture. JJ is fine to raise and call down a 3-bet here -- JJ is no different than KK here, so if you're raising with KK you should be raising with JJ, A9s, Qx as well. Getting 3-bet is never fun but with that board texture there are too many hands he could be going nuts with thinking that we can be bluffing hands like T8, JT, J8, etc.

Rob

I don't agree with betting the turn with QTo, i woudl prefer a check/fold

Nah I definitely think betting is > c/f there. People peel Ace high dry textures a lot and unless you c/r a ton with all Ax hands in your range and think they don't peel super light, you should be barreling most of your range, either for value, as a bluff, or as a protective bet (which QT kind of is here -- a bet that eliminates a decision for you on the turn where you can't accurately c/c or c/f based on a wide handrange you're up against).

Rob

Time Link to 00:52:19

capping AQo multiway is a mistake especially considering you opened from EP and I threebet from SB and there is a caller in between.

capping AQo multiway is a mistake especially considering you opened from EP and I threebet from SB and there is a caller in between.

I agree, I think after the hand Chuck eventually agreed as well. Once the mistake of capping pre is made, I think checking behind the flop is the best play. Frankly I think that if you are checking behind on some board textures (this one included), capping preflop can actually be ok though. Not sure that anyone will come along with me on that one but I had the discussion with DD and it's a fun one.

Rob

yeah i agree, but if you are 3b that that means if i raise UTG you are threebetting a9s on the button which isnt' crazy, but is defintely agg

I don't think the 3-bet with A9s is all that marginal vs. your range, but I think the turn/river play are pretty suspect.

Rob

putting yourself in a spot where you have to make a very questionable calldown of a 3bet or a tough river decision in just an attempt to get 1 more bet in the pot doesn't make any sense to me.

Raising the turn for straight value b/c he expects LOL at that point to call down with all of his ace highs and probably some KQ type hands as well. Mostly dynamic between them, but calling flop raising turn betting river there isn't as thin as a standard as you might think, and it protects your semibluffs in that spot as well. LOL's got a pretty wide range in that spot (as you can see raising T4o in the SB vs a good BB) and a lot of his range is going to want to continue to the turn raise. I'd suspect Chuck is calling down a 3-bet because of their dynamic, but I can't say for sure.

Rob

putting yourself in a spot where you have to make a very questionable calldown of a 3bet or a tough river decision in just an attempt to get 1 more bet in the pot doesn't make any sense to me.

Don't think we'll ever agree on this one then -- it's not a very questionable calldown of a 3-bet, it's just a run of the mill shrug your shoulders calldown of a 3-bet. The dynamic these two have and the boards LOL has been checkraising so far with air mean that it's very likely that he's capable of 3-betting lighter than most on the turn, especially when coupled with the fact that Chuck has a reputation (earned or not) for bluffing and barreling. The fact that you say "only raise when you still have an overpair" is what is really questionable, though -- JJ is no different than KK here. Your opponent's range vs. JJ performs exactly as well; you're still beat by 97o, sets, Q9, AA, etc. The only (and very extreme marginal) difference between the two is that if he slowplayed JJ pre, KK beats JJ and JJ doesn't beat KK, but that isn't nearly enough for you to consider shifting your overall strategy.

Either call down with all of your 1pr hands or get in a nice valueraise/river bet combo. If you said "I just call down with AQo and KK" here it'd be a different story entirely and you'd be consistent w/your overall belief that he's polarized, but when you think A) he's got a wide value range, B) he's got a wide semibluffing range, C) he's capable of getting out of line, and D) he's very capable of thinking you're FOS, that's a recipe for shoveling more bets in on the turn.

Rob

i think youre talking about 2 different hands.

mi2 is talking about AT on like xJT9x or something and youre talking about the JJ vs AA hand(which was superstandard i think)

edit: im wrong!

JJ is different than KK on the turn on a queen high board. When you get threebet on the turn on a queen high board with JJ the percentage of times you are ahead is very low and the percentage of time you are going to improve on the river is only 2 outs. with KK percentage of time you are still ahead is obviously somewhat higher and percentage of time you are going to improve to a higher kings up which beats every other pair is also higher. they are not the same hand. On the flop they are basically the same in terms of value on the turn they are not.

Don't think we'll ever agree on this one then -- it's not a very questionable calldown of a 3-bet, it's just a run of the mill shrug your shoulders calldown of a 3-bet. The dynamic these two have and the boards LOL has been checkraising so far with air mean that it's very likely that he's capable of 3-betting lighter than most on the turn, especially when coupled with the fact that Chuck has a reputation (earned or not) for bluffing and barreling. The fact that you say "only raise when you still have an overpair" is what is really questionable, though -- JJ is no different than KK here. Your opponent's range vs. JJ performs exactly as well; you're still beat by 97o, sets, Q9, AA, etc. The only (and very extreme marginal) difference between the two is that if he slowplayed JJ pre, KK beats JJ and JJ doesn't beat KK, but that isn't nearly enough for you to consider shifting your overall strategy.

Either call down with all of your 1pr hands or get in a nice valueraise/river bet combo. If you said "I just call down with AQo and KK" here it'd be a different story entirely and you'd be consistent w/your overall belief that he's polarized, but when you think A) he's got a wide value range, B) he's got a wide semibluffing range, C) he's capable of getting out of line, and D) he's very capable of thinking you're FOS, that's a recipe for shoveling more bets in on the turn.

Rob

JJ is different than KK on the turn on a queen high board. When you get threebet on the turn on a queen high board with JJ the percentage of times you are ahead is very low and the percentage of time you are going to improve on the river is only 2 outs. with KK percentage of time you are still ahead is obviously somewhat higher and percentage of time you are going to improve to a higher kings up which beats every other pair is also higher. they are not the same hand. On the flop they are basically the same in terms of value on the turn they are not.

This really isn't as true as you're making it out to be. Of course you have more value vs. QhXh and Q9 when you have KK as you either have more outs or you're still ahead, but the equity difference between the two hands AGAINST HIS ENTIRE FLOP C/R RANGE, which is what we care about, is ~5%. This isn't a huge difference by any stretch of the imagination and even if you think your opponent will 3-bet wide, you're either ok raising both, or you shouldn't be raising either. The edge vs. his range, giving him a strong range on the flop (sets, flush draws, 2pr, straight draws) for JJ on the turn is about ~58% (depending on if you think he c/r's all FD's or not) and for KK is about 63%. In either case, you have to very narrowly work up his exact turn 3-bet frequency to have it be in favor of raising the turn with KK but not JJ. The hands themselves perform much more similarly than you think against even a wide flop range, and the only way to change this is to randomly put hands like Q8, KQ, QTo in his flop range which, on this board texture, I would argue is not going to be happening. If you think you're inducing bad 3-bets with a raise, then you should raise both; if you think you're only going to get 3-bet narrowly by most of his value range, then you should not be raising with either.

Here's a very favorable calc that gives you an idea of the relative differences between the two hands:

board: Qc9c7h2h
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
KcKs 66.87% 4,031 0
96s,97,98,T9,J9,Q9,K9,A9,22,77,99,T8s,*h*h,Q7s 33.13% 1,997 0

JcJs 61.11% 3,684 0
96s,97,98,T9,J9,Q9,K9,A9,22,77,99,T8s,*h*h,Q7s 38.89% 2,344 0

You have to come up with some pretty skewed calculations about his turn 3-betting range and frequency in order to make KK a clear raise but JJ a clear call. Basically, there's a reason that this hand is standard -- the range I gave LOL above is actually a bit narrow for him as I'd assume he has lots of 7x hands in his range as well that he'll bet on the turn and at the very least call a raise with. When we're strictly weighing the merits of a turn raise, the two hands are in the same category.

Rob

I guess we will just have to disagree on this one... lol

This really isn't as true as you're making it out to be. Of course you have more value vs. QhXh and Q9 when you have KK as you either have more outs or you're still ahead, but the equity difference between the two hands AGAINST HIS ENTIRE FLOP C/R RANGE, which is what we care about, is ~5%. This isn't a huge difference by any stretch of the imagination and even if you think your opponent will 3-bet wide, you're either ok raising both, or you shouldn't be raising either. The edge vs. his range, giving him a strong range on the flop (sets, flush draws, 2pr, straight draws) for JJ on the turn is about ~58% (depending on if you think he c/r's all FD's or not) and for KK is about 63%. In either case, you have to very narrowly work up his exact turn 3-bet frequency to have it be in favor of raising the turn with KK but not JJ. The hands themselves perform much more similarly than you think against even a wide flop range, and the only way to change this is to randomly put hands like Q8, KQ, QTo in his flop range which, on this board texture, I would argue is not going to be happening. If you think you're inducing bad 3-bets with a raise, then you should raise both; if you think you're only going to get 3-bet narrowly by most of his value range, then you should not be raising with either.

Here's a very favorable calc that gives you an idea of the relative differences between the two hands:





You have to come up with some pretty skewed calculations about his turn 3-betting range and frequency in order to make KK a clear raise but JJ a clear call. Basically, there's a reason that this hand is standard -- the range I gave LOL above is actually a bit narrow for him as I'd assume he has lots of 7x hands in his range as well that he'll bet on the turn and at the very least call a raise with. When we're strictly weighing the merits of a turn raise, the two hands are in the same category.

Rob

I guess we will just have to disagree on this one... lol

Heh, I'm ok with disagreeing but what in my last post did you disagree with?

Rob

quite a bit but i'm playing too many tables to comment back right now..... basically you will fold out hands that are going to beat and get reraised by everything that beats you

Heh, I'm ok with disagreeing but what in my last post did you disagree with?

Rob

quite a bit but i'm playing too many tables to comment back right now..... basically you will fold out hands that are going to beat and get reraised by everything that beats you

That doesn't change whether you have KK or JJ.

Either way if you think he folds a lot on the turn to the turn raise, then you're right, you shouldn't raise JJ, but you shouldn't raise KK either. He has to have a large flop c/r bluff + turn bet-fold range for that stipulation to be correct. It's insanely hard to come up with a range that c/r's the flop and bet-folds enough for JJ to not show a profit on a turn raise + river bet, even if you're calling a 3-bet, and in the situations where you find that range for a turn raise/calldown line to show less profit than calling, KK will show more profit by calling also. That's my main contention here, but I don't think we'll come to a consensus unless you can show me an exact range (I put in some ranges above that I think are on the narrow side, heavy on value hands) where this is true.

Either way, fun hand to debate and there's definitely more than just saying "I have JJ I raise" or "I don't have an overpair I should just call."

Rob

Even though I disagree with some of his thoughts, its really nice to have MI2 here with his opinions.

I do think Rob is right about the JJ hand, we have seen this villain CRing a super wide range and he is going to pay off pretty light too, one overcard isn't enough to change that for me.

It's fun and scary to have 3 of the players on both tables posting in the thread.

OK if DD says so i must be wrongabout that hand!

Even though I disagree with some of his thoughts, its really nice to have MI2 here with his opinions.

I do think Rob is right about the JJ hand, we have seen this villain CRing a super wide range and he is going to pay off pretty light too, one overcard isn't enough to change that for me.

It's fun and scary to have 3 of the players on both tables posting in the thread.

So as a default play should pop the turn if its an overcard but you had top pair on teh flop assuming the turn isn't an ACE?

OK if DD says so i must be wrongabout that hand!

and call down the threebet by default given no reads? or are you talking specifically these players and this hand?

So as a default play should pop the turn if its an overcard but you had top pair on teh flop assuming the turn isn't an ACE?

I generally only raise my draws and strong hands on turn, but on turn i don't consider this ultra strong

and call down the threebet by default given no reads? or are you talking specifically these players and this hand?

Time Link to 00:14:20

You mentioned that if the Jc in this hand was a Jd that you may have to call. When you factor in that the SB could still cap and some of your K outs are dirty do you still feel the same way. Also, the pot will be big so you will probably have to call a turn bet as well as long as it doesn't come to ugly.

Even though I disagree with some of his thoughts, its really nice to have MI2 here with his opinions.

I do think Rob is right about the JJ hand, we have seen this villain CRing a super wide range and he is going to pay off pretty light too, one overcard isn't enough to change that for me.

It's fun and scary to have 3 of the players on both tables posting in the thread.

+1 on the JJ raise, superstandard

and i think it's funny that smaller stakes people (who are probably good enough to beat 10-20) will think: holy shit those 10-20 games on stars are supertough, i probably need like 2k BB to move up, when in reality the games are usually much softer/actually beatable. pretty much the only reason i was/stayed at the tables was chuk

(who can leave when being recorded?)

Time Link to 00:52:45

notice the hand starting now on the left table with me bluffraising teh river!

Good work guys! Must be sick pressure to make a mid stakes videos these days . Even though the discussion is obv excellent.

There were a couple of spots I play differently (actually this is not all of them But 10 is such a round figue).

1) A9s river pay-off I think is pretty poor. I guess u're thinking that there aren't many hands he can v-bet. But there aren't many buffs either. He should muck his worst Ax hands on the flop. Basicaly u are hoping for 9h8h, J8 which are both very unlikely or Ahxh. V-bets includes JJ, Tx, QJ, Q9 (waiting for the turn).

Turn is also very interesting. You say u fire a second barell to fold out smaller PP. MI2 says that u should Xf. I agree with danza on this one for sure. Even though I guess MI2 waits to the turn a fair bit, the PP part of his range is enough to target IMO.

2) ATo turn raise @ 5:13, I just don't think we have the value. Especially since I believe a lot of players will X a JT9x board with AK.

3) AhTd betting KJ29 3 hearts. This is a good azor exercise I will perform later .

4) The AQo u folded to a 3-bet. This is a spot where I use my hud !

5) AKo I tink is solved already. (Chuch is a naughty spewtard in this hand)

6) AA I play the same, but folding is better IMO. Big pot only matters if he can possibly bluff. Think of it this way. Do you think MI2 bluff frequency is higher or lower than optimal in this spot? All this is fun in theory, I still pay off though.

7) I think the 75 donk fold vs djhak on Q84 in a BW is -EV. He seems to be fighting strong in BW (actually to be fair u couldn't have had this read when the hand took place). The donk looks so sick weak. Players who open complete SB often traps if they hit something. I dounno ur image though. But my trigger finger is always itching if I see this line.

8) T6s semi-bluff @40:30 I dislike. Board is 395r; 8s. Villain XR the flop after we open OTB. That eight hits his XR range. At the same time he aint folding a pair given the drawy board and ur history. This is real spewy IMO.

9) QTo second barell in BW @42:50. Board is A95;3. Hmmm I don't mind it actually. Villains range could be some floats and pairs, maybe GS. Thing is we can't XC. So we prefer to blow out the floats if we can. If he has a 5x or a poor 9 I expect him to just call. Therefore our two OC's to the 9 works perfectly as a semi-bluff in this spot. Vs a tight peeler it's suicide though. Also vs someone who will raise with his flot it's bad. I thnk thugh that a decent class of players will call, say T7 and muck the turn UI.

10) JJ hand is wp IMO.


I think the theme for this episode was "Turn aggression".

looks like we agreed on a lot of it.....

Good work guys! Must be sick pressure to make a mid stakes videos these days . Even though the discussion is obv excellent.

There were a couple of spots I play differently (actually this is not all of them But 10 is such a round figue).

1) A9s river pay-off I think is pretty poor. I guess u're thinking that there aren't many hands he can v-bet. But there aren't many buffs either. He should muck his worst Ax hands on the flop. Basicaly u are hoping for 9h8h, J8 which are both very unlikely or Ahxh. V-bets includes JJ, Tx, QJ, Q9 (waiting for the turn).

Turn is also very interesting. You say u fire a second barell to fold out smaller PP. MI2 says that u should Xf. I agree with danza on this one for sure. Even though I guess MI2 waits to the turn a fair bit, the PP part of his range is enough to target IMO.

2) ATo turn raise @ 5:13, I just don't think we have the value. Especially since I believe a lot of players will X a JT9x board with AK.

3) AhTd betting KJ29 3 hearts. This is a good azor exercise I will perform later .

4) The AQo u folded to a 3-bet. This is a spot where I use my hud !

5) AKo I tink is solved already. (Chuch is a naughty spewtard in this hand)

6) AA I play the same, but folding is better IMO. Big pot only matters if he can possibly bluff. Think of it this way. Do you think MI2 bluff frequency is higher or lower than optimal in this spot? All this is fun in theory, I still pay off though.

7) I think the 75 donk fold vs djhak on Q84 in a BW is -EV. He seems to be fighting strong in BW (actually to be fair u couldn't have had this read when the hand took place). The donk looks so sick weak. Players who open complete SB often traps if they hit something. I dounno ur image though. But my trigger finger is always itching if I see this line.

8) T6s semi-bluff @40:30 I dislike. Board is 395r; 8s. Villain XR the flop after we open OTB. That eight hits his XR range. At the same time he aint folding a pair given the drawy board and ur history. This is real spewy IMO.

9) QTo second barell in BW @42:50. Board is A95;3. Hmmm I don't mind it actually. Villains range could be some floats and pairs, maybe GS. Thing is we can't XC. So we prefer to blow out the floats if we can. If he has a 5x or a poor 9 I expect him to just call. Therefore our two OC's to the 9 works perfectly as a semi-bluff in this spot. Vs a tight peeler it's suicide though. Also vs someone who will raise with his flot it's bad. I thnk thugh that a decent class of players will call, say T7 and muck the turn UI.

10) JJ hand is wp IMO.


I think the theme for this episode was "Turn aggression".