Beginner Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

Hey Oink,

I would be awfully tempted to value bet a brick river, unless its of the flush suit (hard to represent a missed semi bluff then if the guy is ok) so I hesitate to call this a FSDR, but still, not a bad spot. It would be a big win if AK folded though I\'m not sure how realistic that is. I feel like if I had 87s here I would raise expecting that hand to call and check/fold river unimproved and sometimes talk himself into a call there too.

Preflop is at least a little close, 22 is just so damn tough to play profitably, obviously I open it from the button but if the button was a LAGgy type I think I\'d fold here.

-DeathDonkey

When we raise with 22 aren\'t we already committed to going to showdown?? which I view as a bad idea.(perhaps this is where I am missing something) And if we are not commited to going to showdown..how can we justify playing this hand? it may be a +EV but only if we take it to showdown EVERYTIME

I see Oink has already given you a good reply Mickey, but I wanted to pick on this point a bit with a trivial example. Everyone would agree that raising KK preflop is +EV, but if we are playing a live game, and the player on my left shows me his cards when looking at them and he has AA, then KK is no longer +EV in that situation. Every postflop action is similar to this trivial example, because we have NEW information which affects our decision, and we can only control what is +EV to do at that point with all that information. We can\'t go back and undo something we felt was +EV earlier which we now think is not +EV, we just have to make the best decision with the latest and greatest information.

-DeathDonkey

this is the only situation where I will make a free showdown raise - when villain has a lot of hidden outs

nh imo

Hi guys

I rarely FSD raise and I love to play TAGs who do it too much because its so exploitable. For the same reason I am hesitant to do it.

Is this ok?

Party 15/30. SB is unknown and BB is 40/10 fish.


I open 22 in the CO. Suits dont matter. SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.


Flop 9 SB

98Q rainbow

SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls


Turn 98Q8 putting up a fd

SB bets, Hero raises



I dont think I am folding a better hand very often. But i do think I can fold a 12-15 outer.

I dont expect an unknown in that game to be 3-betting a worse hand that often altho its gonna happen with non-zero probability.

About preflop.

As I remember the cast I had a TAG or LAGTAG OTB, the unknown in the SB and a 40/10 fish in the BB. With a 2/3 chip structure I think 22 is a pretty easy raise from the CO with those players. I really wanna play the 40/10 guy in position with just about any hand.


When I did raise I figured he should be folding AT, AJ and AK. KJ and KT continues. I also figured he should fold 33-77 in case he had those hands.

Since he is unknown I guessed I was unknown to him so I didnt fear getting 3-bet that much.


@DD

Ya I thought about vb\'ing the river. But if my play is to raise turn and bet river I\'d rather just call down and bet if checked to?


@ Mickey

I dont think you can fold the flop here ever. Try stoving 22 vs a reasonable 3-betting range like 55, A7s, A9o, KTs, KJo, QTs, JTs.

Besides getting 10:1 the call is only costing us about half a SB when he does have AA or KK or AQ. Since we might get 8 SB out of him when we spike its close to a call even if we were superuser 363 and could see his cards were AA.

When we raise with 22 aren\'t we already committed to going to showdown??

Erm, no? And why would you think so?

If I open it and BB calls I can certainly fold if he c/r a JT9 mono flop or AKT flop

but PLAYABILITY....kills us.

Its not easy to play and I cant say for sure its +EV. But in that specific setup with a low rake, 2/3 blind structure, a tight button and a bad BB I think its a pretty easy raise and I am almost certain it is +EV.

BTW please note that it doesnt need to be +EV in a vacuum to be +EV overall.

And we can easily fold to a 3 bet without fear of folding the best hand.

This is the problem with free SD raising and I will be folding the best hand to a 3-bet once in a while.

Oink....(love your name btw)

Its time I learn this play. FSD...free show down...

I am just going to tell you what my NOVICE eyes see.
And please tell me where I am wrong.

Stoxs suggests openning with 22 here also.
and I just dont see it.
by playing this hand...have we not committed ourself to showdown?
the flop is all overcards...
with 3 players behind us.
we need to know they will not go to showdown much
cause we dont have much of a hand....and very little chance to improve.
EX...as bad as I am...could Stox outplay me enough to make up for this hands weaknesses? I kinda doubt it...lol

on the flop....he 3 bet us...Dont we respect that?
To continue seems foolish to me....and I think understanding that it is not foolish....will elevate my game...please explain why we continue.

the turn....this is a power play thats for sure...I understand that part.
trying to fold a 12-15 outer.
you are risking 4 sbets to win 13. Opp is being offered 17 to 2 to call.
Which i believe makes it doubtful he will fold AK.
he might fold some percentage of AJ AT KJ KT Ax Kx .
How much more of a range of foldable hands to put villain on, we dont have info for estimating. (would stox call you here??? with Ax or KJ??..he is the one who got us in this mess...lol,, can he defend it...as much as he can play it??)

the question is...is it worth it to get some percentage of 12-15 outers to fold?
The FD appearing hurts our chances too....he may put you on that draw which would give him more reason to call.

I think because we do not know enough about villain...I would either call down (he may not bet river) or fold.(and I am guessing folding is out of the question)

call down or fold..

(As I was working on this question...I was thinking,,,How can I not end up a good player...DC is full of great players..admins and users...I like being at/near the bottom....FOR NOW!!..LOL)

Oink wrote:

About preflop


@ Mickey

I dont think you can fold the flop here ever. Try stoving 22 vs a reasonable 3-betting range like 55, A7s, A9o, KTs, KJo, QTs, JTs.

Besides getting 10:1 the call is only costing us about half a SB when he does have AA or KK or AQ. Since we might get 8 SB out of him when we spike its close to a call even if we were superuser 363 and could see his cards were AA.

Ty for your reply Oink..

I am arguing this out with you ...because I dont understand it...and am trying to do so.

my point is....When we raise with 22 aren\'t we already committed to going to showdown?? which I view as a bad idea.(perhaps this is where I am missing something) And if we are not commited to going to showdown..how can we justify playing this hand? it may be a +EV but only if we take it to showdown EVERYTIME....if we give up at any point or somehow get more than one bet in with the worst of it we are giving back any +ev that we had when we raise PF and still had fold equity.
I did stove it....we have 40% equity PF, 30% on flop, and 30% on turn...and unless river is a A ...we pretty much have to call river the pot has gotten so big.
we have equity to continue, I concede that.
but PLAYABILITY....kills us.


I hope you understand what I am getting at...this is a new concept for me.

without knowing ALL the players behind us. I think its too loose a play.
however....your raise on the turn I like a lot...because it uses the same amount of bets to get us to showdown(the original goal). And we can easily fold to a 3 bet without fear of folding the best hand.

so...the turn play I like...but deciding to play the hand in the first place..I WANT/NEED YOU TO CONVINCE ME...its a good play.


(for the playability aspect of this hand....I am thinking we need to be playing vs an opponent we are certain will give us correct info during the play of the hand...on whether to continue or fold.
A opp...who\'s bets can\'t be read...we must go to showdown)

DeathDonkey wrote:


I see Oink has already given you a good reply Mickey, but I wanted to pick on this point a bit with a trivial example. Everyone would agree that raising KK preflop is +EV, but if we are playing a live game, and the player on my left shows me his cards when looking at them and he has AA, then KK is no longer +EV in that situation. Every postflop action is similar to this trivial example, because we have NEW information which affects our decision, and we can only control what is +EV to do at that point with all that information. We can\'t go back and undo something we felt was +EV earlier which we now think is not +EV, we just have to make the best decision with the latest and greatest information.

-DeathDonkey[/quote]

I can feel it....This is a very important concept for me to understand.
And at present my mind is not wrapping around this thought..lol

I will go slow as not to lose myself..lol

I think If I can understand this, and put it to practice.I can rid myself of \"weaktightitus\".

I have 22 in the CO. I must factor in all the knowledege I have gathered at the table about my opponents and their playing styles. And about how the game as a whole has been playing.
as OINK put it.....


As I remember the cast I had a TAG or LAGTAG OTB, the unknown in the SB and a 40/10 fish in the BB. With a 2/3 chip structure I think 22 is a pretty easy raise from the CO with those players. I really wanna play the 40/10 guy in position with just about any hand.

this thought process dictates my decision, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME...PF
ANY/ALL ACTION THAT FOLLOWS...IS ITS OWN PROBLEM TO SOLVE!!

AND THE KEY...
I HAVE ALREADY FACTORED THAT INTO MY PF DECISION...


ex...22 is difficult to play postflop vs DD or OINK...or good opp.
I would TEND to fold here, assuming other factors dont over ride this plan.
but vs this group of players.....I can play it with VIGOR..lol


I know for you guys this seems \"trivial\"...you are past it.

sometimes HOW you think..is more important than WHAT you are thinking about....

weaktightitus....
I am driving along in my big 4 wheeldrive poker truck (carrying my cookbook ofcourse)....when I happen upon a puddle of water in the road.I stop. I can\'t get past it, no room on either side. I get out my cookbook, but sadly don\'t find anything on puddles. I can\'t go on...my truck may drowned.


But today....I am whistling...as I DRIVE THROUGH THE DAMN PUDDLE...

THANKS OINK AND DD....