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Poker Video: Razz by Joe Tall (Mid Stakes)

I watched it, and I liked it. The conversation kept me from getting bored with the video. I really liked the card simulations at the end. You guys really are an awesome team. I look forward to the next razz video, especially if Danza runs better, and I'm really looking forward to the stud8 stuff too.

One last one, I took the dead 3 and 6 out and killed a 4 and a 7 instead:

dead cards: 7489K
Hand Pot equity
(5-5-47) 76.58%
3566 23.42%

This call would be very thin, even at 4.5/1 as your reverse implied odds are very high. The bet doubles on 5th street and you have to really catch perfect and him bad to continue.

folding is correct here. the equity calcs are relevant but the bottom line is will not be able to continue enough of the time on 5th to make calling 4th profitable. you need to put in 2 bets on 3rd in order to peel here. this is straight out of sklansky on razz.

folding is correct here. the equity calcs are relevant but the bottom line is will not be able to continue enough of the time on 5th to make calling 4th profitable. you need to put in 2 bets on 3rd in order to peel here. this is straight out of sklansky on razz.

Yeah, I agree, 'very thin' in a situation like this is a fold to me most of the time.

Honestly, this is by far the worst razz training video i've watched in my life... not only does the video offer very little... razz content-wise (i mean.. yay! woohoo.. you read slanksy on razz and know.. 1:4 to outflop one.. and >1:10 to outflop two)... the hero makes some pretty bad mistakes in the video... it is not my responsibility to comment on the play and start lively discussions on this site when there's clearly no hope...

the Hero will LITERALLY get ante'd down to the felt if he continues to play this way...

Joe Tall is not qualified to make razz video's... obviously... and i don't see how a donk can train a donk to a stud... i realize that he concedes in the video that it is his worst stud game... this is a training site out.. and such video's should not be offered.. and should be responsibly taken down... for the good of the subscribers...

I did sign up for the 7 day free trial.. cuz i heard some good things about DC... but Razz is definitely not the game... i'll continue my membership for...

I don't mean to be mean or anything... but i think this type of honesty is necessary... for the good of this site...

also making fun of a coach from another site... is very unprofessional... i have a good sense of humor... but it just makes the coaches of DC look bad... especially... in such a poor video... makes it look like you guys are compensating for something....

-j

Hi jkwizzle,

Please bring up any hand you would like to discuss with the time stamp and we will gladly discuss it. As bluntly slamming this video is not constructive at all. By the way, I do not have "Sklansky on Razz" and have never read anything on Razz in my life nor did I know this book existed.

As for the comments, I may have been out of line, but I was more or less commenting on how painful the game of Razz can be. SG is a helluva Razz player, and I gave him all respect about his play. My comments are about the game of Razz itself.

I do appreciate your comments,
Joe

the Hero will LITERALLY get ante'd down to the felt if he continues to play this way...

I would also like to hear more about this. I open with a T-door later on in the vid that I feel should be a clear fold, and I start the video off w/my hole cards paired. I make a tight fold (and Chuck even comments on that) early on in the vid but the game was very aggressive and you will see in that hand the Ace competes and the 3 raises which is standard in these games. Plus, I make some loose peels on 4th (which I think SGSpecial is a fan of in these games) so I would really like you to post some hands so we could discuss.

But I guess I agree, I will be ante'd to death if I get QJ3 and KJK, etc, was that what you were referring to?

Thanks,
Joe

I'll take anteing away vs. spewing it away. We really got almost nothing close to a playable hand, we were very aggro with steals when we could be. I would also be interested in hearing the hands you felt Joe didn't play well as nobody likes busting up Joe more than I do.

Also - was that what the Dr. Razz comments were? We just agreed Razz is a goofy game and in no way criticized another coach from another site. 100% did not.

Any good or not, I'm not to decide.

Still appreciate that there are vids about the 'other games', and I decided to try play some Razz. (I only play Razz in HORSE and am clueless about how to play it)

After a while I encountered the next possible 'King doorcard defense' situation, sorry I had troubles with the handconverter.

PokerStars Game #18836758270: Razz Limit ($3/$6) - 2008/07/15 - 10:52:44 (ET)
Table 'Saskia' 8-max
Seat 1: donrudo ($113.50 in chips)
Seat 2: AAAAA ($75.50 in chips)
Seat 4: BBBBB ($232 in chips)
Seat 5: CCCCC ($84 in chips)
Seat 6: DDDDD ($84.75 in chips)
Seat 7: EEEEE ($128 in chips)
Seat 8: villain ($125.25 in chips)

all 7 players post the ante $0.25

*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd]
Dealt to AAAAA [As]
Dealt to BBBBB [Qh]
Dealt to CCCCC [6c]
Dealt to DDDDD [2s]
Dealt to EEEEE [Jh]
Dealt to villain [6h]

donrudo: brings in for $1
all fold
villain: raises $2 to $3
donrudo: calls $2

*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd] [6s]
Dealt to villain [6h] [Ts]
villain: bets $3
donrudo: calls $3

*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd 6s] [9h]
Dealt to villain [6h Ts] [7d]
villain: bets $6
donrudo: calls $6

*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd 6s 9h] [6d]
Dealt to villain [6h Ts 7d] [2h]
villain: bets $6
donrudo: calls $6

*** RIVER ***
Dealt to donrudo [5d Ac Kd 6s 9h 6d] [Ah]
villain said, "call"
villain said, "i've got a boat"
villain said, "no you dont"
Donrudo said, "beat 9?"
villain said, "we'll see"
villain has timed out
villain: folds
villain is sitting out
villain has returned
donrudo collected $36.75 from pot
villain said, "what"
villain said, "the"
donrudo: shows [5d Ac Kd 6s 9h 6d Ah] (Lo: K,9,6,5,A)
villain said, "FU.CK"

Riverchat posted for comedy value.
Villain said to have had an 8-low, I claimed he must have started with a pair or rolled trips and filled up on the river. Hilarity ensued.

Street-by-street thoughts:
3rd street villain is in perfect steal position and has been aggressive.
He could have 'any 3', pot odds are almost 3 to 2 where my hot-and-cold equity against a random hand with 6 doorcard is 42%. Standard defense?

4th I catch a very good card, but opponent doesnt totally brick. Against random I am now actually the favourite, but dont dare raising because he -could- have a real hand. Right?

5th I catch a draw to a nine, where opponent gets a seven. He could be on a Ten-low draw, but I am not sure. I decided to just call because I couldnt decide what to do best. What to do, think I should have mucked here, right?

6th I brick, opponent gets a deuce. Here i lack the discipline to fold, and basically hope to catch a 9low which then may or may not be good. A clear fold here?

7th muhahahah. Still wonder what my opponent held. Bluffing the river in a $3/6 game has no chance at all, does it? Have you ever seen this kind of 'expert laydowns' for 1 more bet at these stakes, or at higher stakes?

btw, later on in the game all players folded to my King doorcard. I like!

By the way, I do not have "Sklansky on Razz" and have never read anything on Razz in my life nor did I know this book existed.

You are kidding, are you? Otherwise you should strongly consider grabbing a copy. Worth reading.

You are kidding, are you? Otherwise you should strongly consider grabbing a copy. Worth reading.

I am not kidding, I just ordered it, can't wait. I doubt it will change how I feel about the game overall (the pain that it gives me) but it should be great for me to read.

As for that hand history, first http://www.alliance-x.com/stud_converter.html, and in the Stars structure where the ante should be .50 there, fold 3rd.

7 Day free trial, imo.

well played sir.

well played.

*goes off to sign up for the 7day free trial*

Very interesting comments here. It just goes to show you what Razz does to people. It's the cards version of chinese water torture. But I think that is what can potentially make this type of game juicy. You simply capitalize on the mistakes others make when they tilt. You actually do pretty much play your cards probably moreso than any other game. Even with all the mistakes I do see others make especially at the level I primarily play ($1/$2) this game still can tilt the hell out of me.

Joe, I did hate to see you get beat up by a couple of people in previous comments but I will sympathize w/the sentiment that I would really enjoy watching some Razz vids from someone that is a Razz specialist. You are no doubt a very gifted mixed game specialist but even to your own admission are not a Razz specialist. You of course are much better than I but I would love to hear what your thoughts are after reading Sklansky's Razz book and the new 'Play Razz Poker to Win' which I found a very interesting book and also very helpful. Had some interesting info on defending as well. The rule of 2 I found to be a good rule when defending. Also lot of good calcs on best made hand vs. best drawing hand in the book. Still trying to wrap my head around it to make some sense out of it.

With your Stud game knowledge, ability to read dead cards and apply that knowledge, you are only a breadth away from being the new Dr. Razz. lol. Seriously, I don't want to jump on the beat Joe up bandwagon, I'm just trying to help reconcile the frustrations some people may feel in watching this vid. I could be way off base in my assesment. I personally will always value your input and will always watch with enthusiasm the vids you post.

PS - My biggest weakness is remembering the dead cards. I'm way too ADHD. Will continue to work on that. I loved the calcs you did on the 643 vs/A53 w/2 6's dead. You 4-bet me w/what?

Street-by-street thoughts:
3rd street villain is in perfect steal position and has been aggressive.
He could have 'any 3', pot odds are almost 3 to 2 where my hot-and-cold equity against a random hand with 6 doorcard is 42%. Standard defense?

Awesome sir.

4th I catch a very good card, but opponent doesnt totally brick. Against random I am now actually the favourite, but dont dare raising because he -could- have a real hand. Right?

I'm with you thus far. You are still playing your hand face up.

5th I catch a draw to a nine, where opponent gets a seven. He could be on a Ten-low draw, but I am not sure. I decided to just call because I couldnt decide what to do best. What to do, think I should have mucked here, right?

He could have a made ten but probably not.

6th I brick, opponent gets a deuce. Here i lack the discipline to fold, and basically hope to catch a 9low which then may or may not be good. A clear fold here?

I think you can find a fold here. This is where a read on your opponent may be helpful. Also, if you had followed the dead cards you would know that his six is not paired and the 2 on 6th is not likely paired. Would love to get Joe's feedback on how the deadcards would determine his action on this and the subsequent streets.

7th muhahahah. Still wonder what my opponent held. Bluffing the river in a $3/6 game has no chance at all, does it? Have you ever seen this kind of 'expert laydowns' for 1 more bet at these stakes, or at higher stakes?

Coming from NL I'm still trying to get used to the idea of 'never folding' on 7th. Of course I'm sure there are times you should and this is probably one of those times. You would be getting 7:1 Is your K high good that often? If you run the hand through the simulator you get the following
dead cards - AQ62J
your hand - 5AK696A - 2.32% jumps to a wopping 2.69% w/o dead card info.
villains hand - **6T72* - 97.68%
Basically you would need odds of 49:1 to make the call. Honestly, before I did the computation I thought the K high might not have been that bad of a call but it actually shows to be down right ugly. hmmmmmm. Thanks for posting this hand Elrudo!

btw, later on in the game all players folded to my King doorcard. I like!

And of course for meta game purposes the implied odds are priceless.

I'm not sure if anyone is even going to watch this cause it's Razz, tbh. But maybe we could chat a bit, Chuck, I dunno.

I'm quite the razz fan, Joe. Definitely enjoyed your whole other "From Donk 2 Stud" series.