Off Topic Poker Forums

why buy something that you can download on the internetz

Think that is what shuttle means.

And about banning me, sure go ahead, what does it matter ?
I just make another acount and will be back being my honoust self like im being right now.

This, like not caring about copyright and posting that ignorantly in the author's thread, just demonstrates poor attitude.

At the end of the day openly saying you stole from impova and hinting that others should do the same is very very poor form imo.

I'm not going to preach about piracy because I've downloaded plenty of stuff from the internet, but I find the reasoning very funny that it can't be theft because you're not physically taking anything. If it was a printed copy you took from somewhere without paying for it I don't think anyone would say its not theft, but because its a PDF that you downloaded instead of physically taking it, then its fine? Just think thats weird logic.

Regardless, at the end of the day piracy does and will continue to exist. If people want something without paying for it, they'll get it. But there's really no need to brag about it, be obnoxious about it etc.

that feeling of anger? confusion? having something you believe being openly questioned? it's called cognitive dissonance.

X and Y does not compute. that headache is your brain trying to account for two conflicting thoughts at the same time.

but this is it for me. discretion is the better part of... and whatnot. sorry again to improva.

(if anybody is interested in reading up on this further, here's a great article on it.

well i lied again. one more thing. rather than being too focused on the negatives, let's look at the positives here also. with change comes opportunities for those who are able to see it and adapt.

for example, DeucesCracked does a wonderful job of this, offering more, way more than what they charge. the model isn't totally free, but if they could get a hardliner like me to subscribe, they got something right.

Free! Why $0.00 Is the Future of Business

I'm trying to develop reads for real life and am curios; do you consider yourself religious/conservative? Note I'm not questioning your post here.

Haha atheist/liberal is definitely closer.

Where did i say that people are being stupid for buying their work ?

btw im pretty shoked about the amount of pussyness in these forums the last couple of weeks.
everyone seems to be acting like a little 6y old boy that has just lost his piece of candy.

I already apoligized to oliver in this thread & i noted why i downloaded it & why i dont feel bad about downloading it.
I also noted that its an outdated version & the package is waaaaay more then that.
I never said it was dumb or stupid to pay for his package (like shuttle repedetly inclined)
I DID said it was dumb not to download good content if you get the chance to.

Your all acting like you never downloaded a movie or a cd before in your life.
I mean, give me a break will ya.

And about banning me, sure go ahead, what does it matter ?
I just make another acount and will be back being my honoust self like im being right now.
you got a problem with that ? OK, i dont mind getting critisism. I dont mind being wrong & having people say whats right, you learn from that & so do i.
but acting like your all a bunch of angles that never downloaded something from the internet before, cmon, stop being a bunch of little pussy's and be fair & honoust...

I downloaded a ton of stuff back when I was in college. Since then, I have not. That is the difference. You say you don't mind being wrong, yet you continue to defend being wrong instead of possibly changing your viewpoint. In addition, whether Bobby and Sue stole something doesn't change the fact that stealing it is wrong. So to use the excuse that others have done it is just that - an excuse.

You made a bad joke. That's not a big deal. But then defending it and saying that stealing, yes stealing nawhead, is fine for reasons X, Y, and Z is why you are getting the reaction given (as you so eloquently put it 'pussyness'). Banning you is extreme and uncalled for imo, but I do hope you and others in this thread are able to see that just because you CAN steal something, doesn't mean you SHOULD or that is makes it ok.

It would also help if you just calmed down a bit because I assure you I've been in the same position. You get caught defending something you said and get all emotional, calling people names, and then you look back and realize it was immature and didn't solve anything.

There are a myriad of excuses and rationalizations being made ITT. Hopefully we can get past that at some point and just accept that if someone puts in the effort to create something that they want to sell, they should be free to do so without it being stolen. And the fact that stealing said product is even being discussed in these forums is obviously ridiculous and rude.

The alternative view is that old content is a useful promotional tool for an author. Have you ever heard of "payola"? Record companies used to bribe radio stations to play their records. They did this because it paid in extra sales.

I actually flagged a copy of Poker Puzzle to Improva a couple of years ago, and he said it was out of date, so didn't care about it

It's like DC offering a free week of access: the intelligent business view is that it is promotional. Similarly, Tri will have free extracts of his books avaialble to read.

The free-loader that grabs ebooks starting out very often is the paying customer later on. Calling it "theft" is wrong: no property is removed. It's morally wrong, but it isn't theft.

Old content is definitely a great marketing tool. Like you said, DC offers free stuff every now and then. There's a big difference between DC offering the stuff for free and someone taking it though. Improva never offered his old book for free. It was just taken.

(I realize you didn't say it was, but I'm just stating the difference in case, like so many other arguments ITT, this is used as a rationalization for stealing.)

With re: to your point about theft, I disagree. What if you printed out what you took? Does it then become theft?

well i lied again. one more thing. rather than being too focused on the negatives, let's look at the positives here also. with change comes opportunities for those who are able to see it and adapt.

for example, DeucesCracked does a wonderful job of this, offering more, way more than what they charge. the model isn't totally free, but if they could get a hardliner like me to subscribe, they got something right.

Free! Why $0.00 Is the Future of Business

I could definitely see this being the future of business. And the fact that you actually subscribe to DC is certainly crazy

That's not a big deal. But then defending it and saying that stealing, yes stealing nawhead,

i don't think it's stealing. and i don't think copying intellectual property for personal use is wrong. i do admit i am violating the letter of the law in that i copy complete works rather than excerpts, but i feel how i use is still within the spirit of the law, and you can judge me based on that liberal interpretation.


i can't really say it any better than the article i linked. from "Tragedy of the Commons": Intellectual Property Rights in the Information Age by Robin D. Gross:

"Another major myth regarding "intellectual property" protection is that it is the same as more traditional forms of property such as personal property or real estate. But this conflation of intellectual property is grossly misleading and harmful. Copying another's intellectual creation does not end the owner's right to make use of the original. Intellectual property rights are created only as a means to encourage further creativity for the ultimate benefit of all society, while more traditional forms of property rights are designed to protect the personal and private interests of their owners. This crucial distinction can be seen when considering that one's house is not intended to pass into the public domain at some time; nor does anyone have a fair use right to borrow another's car. Intellectual property is intended to have ownership "holes", to be imperfect in its control, while real or personal property are more absolute in the their grants to owners.

Equating these very different forms of property rights together leads to the inevitable restriction of the public's rights giving way to more absolute property rights for large entertainment companies. Those wishing to maximize copyrights often merge the differing types of property together, appealing to society's natural affection for traditional property rights in an effort to confuse and extend that affection to a different concept.

...Many in the entertainment industry erroneously claim that all unauthorized copying is the equivalent of "theft". But in actuality, most ordinary copying is not infringement. For example, copying for personal use, education, research, commentary, criticism, parody or other socially important uses are generally lawful under copyright law. And anything created before 1923 unequivocally belongs in the public domain and may be freely copied by anyone for any purpose, including commercial purposes. So claims that all unauthorized copying is the same social horror as theft hits far from the mark of legal accuracy."

Where is the line for IP? If taking a pdf is fine, then why is it different for a book? I'm honestly asking as I don't see the difference. If the claim is that ideas and thoughts can't be stolen, then isn't a book simply a collection of those things? If that's the case, then taking a book should be fine, right?

The way I look at it is this - Bob creates a document online, X, and wants to sell it. The reason people buy X is for personal use. This conflicts with:

"But in actuality, most ordinary copying is not infringement. For example, copying for personal use."

So how do you reconcile Bob's incentive if people are just going to copy his work and not pay him for it?

I downloaded a ton of stuff back when I was in college. Since then, I have not. That is the difference. You say you don't mind being wrong, yet you continue to defend being wrong instead of possibly changing your viewpoint. In addition, whether Bobby and Sue stole something doesn't change the fact that stealing it is wrong. So to use the excuse that others have done it is just that - an excuse.

You made a bad joke. That's not a big deal. But then defending it and saying that stealing, yes stealing nawhead, is fine for reasons X, Y, and Z is why you are getting the reaction given (as you so eloquently put it 'pussyness'). Banning you is extreme and uncalled for imo, but I do hope you and others in this thread are able to see that just because you CAN steal something, doesn't mean you SHOULD or that is makes it ok.

It would also help if you just calmed down a bit because I assure you I've been in the same position. You get caught defending something you said and get all emotional, calling people names, and then you look back and realize it was immature and didn't solve anything.

There are a myriad of excuses and rationalizations being made ITT. Hopefully we can get past that at some point and just accept that if someone puts in the effort to create something that they want to sell, they should be free to do so without it being stolen. And the fact that stealing said product is even being discussed in these forums is obviously ridiculous and rude.

i said i dont mind getting critisism, and if im wrong im wrong.
i was wrong making that comment, i agree, and i apologized for that.
i dont feel i was wrong when i downloaded the book, and i would do it again.
+ i wont feel bad or ashamed about it. If that makes me a bad person, well then so be it
you downloaded a ton of stuff back when you were in college, have you ever felt bad about it ?
i highly doubt anyone ever feels bad after downloading an Ebook, video, mp3 or whatever (unless they also downloaded a virus that went with it, wich sucks)

i made a bad joke yes, some people do think its a big deal, so be it. I apologized with improva and thats the only person i will apologize to. I dont mind what others say or think about it because i know i was wrong with my comment and the only one i did harm too (never ment to do harm or ment any disrespect) was improva.
Also i never made any statementt about defending stealing for X or Y raeson
I never stole something in my live (maybe when i was a little boy some candy or whatever) but i download movies mp3s & ebooks on daily basis, and i dont feel bad about it at all, and whatever anyone says or articles that are posted, i wont change my mind about it.

i was calm everytime i wrote a comment, i was just pretty shoked about the amount of reactions that came out. esp because it wasnt improva himself, it were people that have the feeling they needed to talk for him. wheter he wanted this or not doesnt matter. like i said, i said sorry to improva, and what other say about it is not my business (im not saying they shouldnt say anything, im saying that im sorry for what i did regarding improva, not regarding anybody else that has been flaming me in this thread)
I didnt wanna call anyone names. I just thought, and still think, that everybody is acting like little children, saying piracy is wrong and that i should be ashamed, its pretty naief given the fact that im sure 99,9% of those people download movies & mp3s and stuff themselfs, and do say to friend, you gotta download that movie, it rules !

Yes, I do feel bad about it because I believe it is wrong. No, none of my friends say "you gotta download that movie!" or anything similar. I realize a bunch of people do, but I'll gladly take the under on 99.9%.

" i download movies mp3s & ebooks on daily basis, and i dont feel bad about it at all, and whatever anyone says or articles that are posted, i wont change my mind about it."

Always good to keep an open mind. I see that yours is closed so I'm done discussing this with you.

if you believe it is wrong, then why did you do it ?
in your post you said you downloaded a TON, why ?
its not like you did it once, felt bad, so never did it again.
you downloaded, felt bad, but still went for it and downloaded a ton more, why is that ?

i understand that some people think its bad and feel bad about it. But i was grown up in a community where all these things came into the world for the first time.
the fxp scene, ftp servers, sharing hard drives, warez sites, torrents and so on and so on.
I never felt bad for it because when there was a really good movie i felt that deserved the money to be seen or bought on dvd, i did that. the same goes for music. I also go to concerts a bunch.
but i alwayz found downloading and watching a movie that i would otherwize never pay for to go see or buy on dvd verry interesting. Because i wouldv never payed money to see it anywayz, i didnt take away soemthing from the film makers, because i was never thinking about paying for there movie. even if i couldnt download it, if i couldnt download it then i would never bought the dvd either, because i wasnt planning on seeing it (sorry for the bad explenation)

another question, you go to the movies, pay for it, now a couple of years later you want to see the movie again, what do you do ? buy it or download it ?
do you still feel bad downloading it ? you already payed to see it once, do you need to pay for it again ?

do you think (back in the old days) taping songs on the radio with your casette player was a crime ?
because its essentially the same.
do you feel bad about lending a book from the librarry, ofc the librarry prolly pays for the books, but for you it is free, you could aswell buy the book in the shop but elect to take it for free in the library, its not a crime, its 100% legal, but its still in essence the same. you get the book for free while you also have the option of getting the book by paying for it.

i got an open mind on a lot of topics, but this is one i doubt im ever gonna change it...
and like i said, i understand why some people think its bad, and wont do it, but should i really feel bad because i dont think this way ?
should i feel like im a thief, the same way as someone is who carjacks or steals things in a shop ?

Where is the line for IP? If taking a pdf is fine, then why is it different for a book? I'm honestly asking as I don't see the difference.

you're confusing taking a physical object with transmission of ideas contained within it. with a hardcopy, if i take it, you no longer have access to the book, and you have a real loss in assets. but if i create a copy, you still have the original.

i posed the simple question before to Nixon but never got an answer: if i have "stolen" from someone when i copy a ebook, what do they have less of than before?

and i have to stress that this is a separate argument from stealing someone's authorship or claim to earn exclusive profits from sale of an intellectual work. that is totally wrong on all accounts.

"But in actuality, most ordinary copying is not infringement. For example, copying for personal use."

So how do you reconcile Bob's incentive if people are just going to copy his work and not pay him for it?

the profit motive is a red herring. most of the great works of literature people read weren't written under copyright laws. maybe people just like to write because they have something meaningful to say rather than looking for a buck? imo, copyright laws don't guarantee or even promote better creativity by a longshot.

and fwiw, i also own real hardcopies of books paid for in cash money.


EUSSI wrote:

do you feel bad about lending a book from the librarry, ofc the librarry prolly pays for the books, but for you it is free, you could aswell buy the book in the shop but elect to take it for free in the library, its not a crime, its 100% legal, but its still in essence the same. you get the book for free while you also have the option of getting the book by paying for it.

and this. do the guys who think it's unfair when i read a free copy of a book also angry at public libraries? should universal public education also be abolished? what about 2nd hand book stores? the author doesn't see a dime of 2nd hand sales. where exactly does the moral outrage start and end?