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ambtndplyr

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379 posts
Joined 02/2009

Of course when you have premium, you want to maximize the size of the pot. But these don't come very often.



you only win a pot versus a 66 vpip with a premium?
you only win a pot versus the same guy because you show down the better hand?

well...

Posted over 2 years ago

JaKoB_19

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46 posts
Joined 04/2012

you only win a pot versus a 66 vpip with a premium?
you only win a pot versus the same guy because you show down the better hand?

well...



No, but why make pot larger when you are going to try and bluff a fish more often than not? Keeping pot smaller allows you to make smaller mistake in the long run.

Pretty simple math...

You open 3x, villain calls and you cbet 4.5bb and get raised, you fold.
You open 2x, villain calls and you cbet 2bb and get raised, you fold and you save 3.5bb.

Again, of course you raise more when you bet for value and smaller when bluff. I get that and I know you do to. Smile

Posted over 2 years ago

euEra

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739 posts
Joined 08/2010

Keeping pot smaller increases edge vs bad players

Opening larger wont affect us because the pot will only be a couple bb larger on the flop and if we miss we are giving up, hence why we tighten our range up pre flop.

Of course when you have premium, you want to maximize the size of the pot. But these don't come very often.

We don't just want to maximize the size of the pot with a premium hand that is the point, we also want this to happen with TPTK and vs some calling stations even MP. These guys dont know where there fold button is and when they have 2 suited cards they dont care about your bet size they want to see all 5 cards.

No, but why make pot larger when you are going to try and bluff a fish more often than not?

We are not wanting to bluff these guys ever. We want to take them to value town, we want to maximize our value you by betting thinly and flexing our bet size.

Posted over 2 years ago

Deets

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594 posts
Joined 11/2010

If they just want to see 5 cards why not overbet flop and turn once we make something?

Posted over 2 years ago

euEra

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739 posts
Joined 08/2010

If they just want to see 5 cards why not overbet flop and turn once we make something?


Definately! Whatever allows me to get as much money as possible in by the river and set up stacks.
If you bet pot on the flop and turn, the river bet will be close to pot, but say you bet 1.25x the pot on the flop and turn, the river bet may now only be 1/2-2/3 pot, i find this gets a lot of meh calls from bad players with TPWK, TPMK and i have even been called with an A high, probably because its a small bet and they think what the hell (or they call for "information" lol).

Posted over 2 years ago

ambtndplyr

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379 posts
Joined 02/2009

euEra i have a feeling you think too much in terms of absolute compared to relative hand strenght as you should
i think the whole discussion is kinda odd. i mean would you prefer playing a fish at 1/2 only or at 5/10. its kinda obvious.we win pot more often than he does b/c of hand reading and we can manipulate potsizes in our favour. if we win pots more often then the fish we want them to be big, even though due to nature of the game with shallower stackpot-ratio our skilladvantage decreases compared to 831092381209bb behind

Posted over 2 years ago

BaseMetal

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2160 posts
Joined 01/2010

My theory with the bet size was roughly that preflop we can usually have something like a 60 40 advantage from hand selection alone but if we can get into flops with somebody that will almost always call down we can often hit, get a much bigger advantage, and then pile in more money at this point. If our stack falls then you still end up in shove territory but when relatively deep stacked you can see more flops playing small and so choose better spots where you get a lot in.
As usual a lot would depend on some other factors like the play of the others present, do you need to isolate the fish - this is why I would possibly adjust my hand ranges to more multi-player friendly if doing it from a bad position and also be careful of not getting too wide.
Another major thing to consider is c-bet frequency. You would have to drop this down an appropriate amount depending on how stationy the player.

Posted over 2 years ago

BaseMetal

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2160 posts
Joined 01/2010

euEra i have a feeling you think too much in terms of absolute compared to relative hand strenght as you should
i think the whole discussion is kinda odd. i mean would you prefer playing a fish at 1/2 only or at 5/10. its kinda obvious.we win pot more often than he does b/c of hand reading and we can manipulate potsizes in our favour. if we win pots more often then the fish we want them to be big, even though due to nature of the game with shallower stackpot-ratio our skilladvantage decreases compared to 831092381209bb behind


If in a cash game you can clearly raise all streets higher in the presence of a very loose player but in tournies you have to consider you tournie-life as you can't reload. If you do have big pairs put in a big raise pre but wait to see flops when you don't. In SnGs you are often playing with quite low stacks so getting it all in late often won't be a big problem.

Posted over 2 years ago

kerwinty

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559 posts
Joined 05/2011

IMO- playing oop vs calling stations is alot more difficult as is playing oop against anyone, but since they never give any indication if they have a draw, ace high, bottom pair, the nuts, air, its harder to know where you stand. I posted about this awhile back and have adjusted the way I play oop with strong draw type hand depending on whether villain is likely to bluff if checked to. Sometimes I can't get over how often people simply just don't fold- ever. The have no clue I am opening a super tight range from UTG with them in position and strong players in the blind. Eventually their stack dwindles away, but sometimes it gets frustrating because you literally have no information about their range compared to board except that it is super super wide.

Posted over 2 years ago

euEra

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739 posts
Joined 08/2010

euEra i have a feeling you think too much in terms of absolute compared to relative hand strenght as you should
i think the whole discussion is kinda odd. i mean would you prefer playing a fish at 1/2 only or at 5/10. its kinda obvious.we win pot more often than he does b/c of hand reading and we can manipulate potsizes in our favour. if we win pots more often then the fish we want them to be big, even though due to nature of the game with shallower stackpot-ratio our skilladvantage decreases compared to 831092381209bb behind


I dont at all, how can you explain very dynamic situations to a very static forum question. Its not possible. I set vague brief outlines that hero should adjust depedning on reads, table dynamics and villians adjustments.

Also when the SPR gets quite low, yes we will lose some skill advantage, but we don't let the SPR get so low unless we want to, hence we will have card advantage and more often than not positional advantage.
The SPR wont matter until the turn in most cases at which point we should already have a solid plan of what we are going to do in the river and if we are playing for stacks or not. I do not make big pots with air vs these players.

Posted over 2 years ago

rrumsey

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5821 posts
Joined 06/2010

why do people just assume people can't make big mistakes not being deep? i have seen shorties punt many 100's of BB by just 3 bet spazzing 40BB and calling pre and shoving flops wildly. Just adjust your game. In theory as long as people make mistakes we can exploit we will stand to have a positive expectation. People are overthinking this a lot in this thread.

Posted over 2 years ago




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