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Lelantos actually they won't pick up on it at all, especially in zoom, and especially in these stakes. You say in your first paragraph that they play their own hand and don't pick up on bet sizing. In your second paragraph you state that they might notice if you change your bet sizing to fit the strength of your hand. Being exploitive against your opponents vs being balanced is very important. You have to know when you can exploit your opponents. The reality is, in zoom especially, you can change your bet sizing compared to the strength of your hand. Your bluff 4 bet size of under 3x does seem too low though anyway. Also some bad players will 3 bet those hands and call a 4 bet with it because they are bad. Good players will 3 bet small pocket pairs a lot of the time then fold to a 4 bet (various arguments on this - belugawhale has discussed it before i.e. some pros like to not 3 bet these and set mine instead).

You have to realise that your low 4 bet does a couple of things depending on the player you're playing against. Against a good player they now know you have QQ+ or AK (people don't min 4 bet as a bluff). Against a bad player they are more likely to call with bad hands. Therefore, you have to realise some people may be going in with hands that can spike a set or other stupid crap like suited connectors etc.

Even bad players most of the time won't lightly call shoves on the flop unless they like their hand. Since they look at their own hand only and if they look down at AK and say well I don't even have a pair here, I guess I have to fold, then you lose out on value from your hand that you could have gotten if you either got it in preflop or just bet smaller on the flop (people will peel with AK). People love to put you on hands like KK or AA since it is easy and they feel like good players when they are right. So if you shove here a lot of fish will just put you on these hands and fold their pocket 7s and say well I guess it is no good here. Most of the time shoving here on the flop is bad because you're going to lose out on value from worse hands i.e. you're folding out a significant amount of worse hands a lot of the time like AK, AQ, or lower pocket pairs, you're always getting called by anything that beats you so you're not folding out better hands, and the only hands that may call a shove here most of the time that you can beat are QQ and maybe JJ, but if they are calling a shove here with these hands they would have likely gotten it in preflop. This stuff is not irrelevant even if you do 4 bet preflop and you either call a shove or fold because in some cases you might 3 bet and get called and be in a similiar situation oop then you have to decide how you're going to play it post flop.

Imo you should watch the series 'from the ground up.'

So late and such long posts to read


I would bet the same amount given villain's stack size as a bluff and fold to a 5bet.

Very often IN ZOOM people fold to such bet sizes for 4bets. I could go and find 20 examples from PT3 from the last few days easily.

I'm not one of the guys that 4bets small to keep players in the hand. It is enough to get folds if the tight players don't want to continue.

4bet sizes are always under 3x

I know a lot of what you're saying. This is not a typical situation, this is a 4bet pot which doesn't happen very often. Villain's hands are very very face up in these situations.

The stupid minbet reraise rule could be confusing me here, because I don't actually know what the minbet for my 4bet is. To me it looks like I'm near to 2.5x his 3bet.

I don't know why you think 3x or more is standard for a 4bet vs a 3bet headsup.

I find zoom very tilting and all players so unpredictable, mixture of spewers and trappers and slow players :S

why play zoom then? Play normal tables where you can develop reads etc... I thought same about rush on ft.

You bet 1.10 into a pot of 60 after the villian had raised to 0.45. This means the villian has to put in another 65 cents to see the flop. However, the total pot is 1.70. You're giving villian odds of 2:1 on a call preflop which isn't ideal. If you bet slightly higher you would make it more incorrect for him to call. You keep saying how face up the villian's hand range is but if you know that range has a lot of sets in it then it would make shoving on the flop less ideal. If his range was tight then 4 betting to an amount he has to shove or fold with would be a good play. The truth is we can only really apply a generic range to the villian if it is an unknown (i.e. guess for a reg at these stakes or what ever) but you have to realise when you 4 bet but giving 2:1 on a call a lot of people may just call and see the flop with what ever crap they have because they don't understand that your range for doing this is very tight. However, considering you bluff 4 bet a lot, likely with just broadways the villian's call in position might not have been terrible because he may be ahead a lot of the time and may get a c bet out of you on the flop (but I doubt he was thinking that - he was thinking wow I got a pair this is the nuts). You don't want to make the villian play correctly against your range. Giving 2:1 on a call isn't cool, even if it is a 4 bet. You're actually laying decent odds for AK or AQ to call here if your range is JJ+ and AK.

I find zoom very tilting and all players so unpredictable, mixture of spewers and trappers and slow players :S

don't play Zoom then?

I'd just stick to normal games. Since Zoom has been about, I actually think the normal games have got softer (regs grinding Zoom perhaps?).

I should actually say I am not able to get out of regular 5nl either this time either. I found the problem with another player:

I'm not a nit and not playing fit or fold. Yesterday I ran 3BI below EV was very tilted and angry and it probably contributed to a sleepless night so I have to deal with that stuff.

You bet 1.10 into a pot of 60 after the villian had raised to 0.45. This means the villian has to put in another 65 cents to see the flop. However, the total pot is 1.70. You're giving villian odds of 2:1 on a call preflop which isn't ideal. If you bet slightly higher you would make it more incorrect for him to call. You keep saying how face up the villian's hand range is but if you know that range has a lot of sets in it then it would make shoving on the flop less ideal. If his range was tight then 4 betting to an amount he has to shove or fold with would be a good play. The truth is we can only really apply a generic range to the villian if it is an unknown (i.e. guess for a reg at these stakes or what ever) but you have to realise when you 4 bet but giving 2:1 on a call a lot of people may just call and see the flop with what ever crap they have because they don't understand that your range for doing this is very tight. However, considering you bluff 4 bet a lot, likely with just broadways the villian's call in position might not have been terrible because he may be ahead a lot of the time and may get a c bet out of you on the flop (but I doubt he was thinking that - he was thinking wow I got a pair this is the nuts). You don't want to make the villian play correctly against your range. Giving 2:1 on a call isn't cool, even if it is a 4 bet. You're actually laying decent odds for AK or AQ to call here if your range is JJ+ and AK.

THERE ARE NO SETS IN HIS RANGE ON THE FLOP!!!!!!!1

I would go and get hand histories to prove to you this bet sizing gets a ton of folds vs. unknowns but your mind is made up already.

Hey, you really need to chill out a bit. If poker players spent there time talking about ev, nothing would get done. If anything it should encourage you. When I've beaten up a player so bad, he thinks it's cool to stack off with a mid pair or whatever, I'm happy whether I win or lose. I spoke to inavacuum about zoom, he suggested that it might amplify leaks, I'm inclined to agree.

Yeah, I told myself I would not post at all for a long time because I'm too bad a player in general to post, then talked to someone who said you should post hands to find out if you are spewing in standard spots. I'll go back to not posting then this won't happen.

I'm still just arguing about poker and not about to insult anyone here.

I can't keep happy if my BR keeps flat at 5nl of any kind for 10k hands. It's the first time in a while I've just been stuck for thousands of hands. I am stuck at non-zoom too, although only just tried to change to playing nittier, from becoming too loose recently.

Oh and the other thing is I can't build up reads at regular tables. Huge player pool, table selecting and so much slower.

THERE ARE NO SETS IN HIS RANGE ON THE FLOP!!!!!!!1

I would go and get hand histories to prove to you this bet sizing gets a ton of folds vs. unknowns but your mind is made up already.

Well clearly you're wrong since he called with pocket 7s and if he is calling with 7s he is probably calling with lower pocket pairs. If you want to talk about unknowns rather than this particular player's range feel free to review my previous posts which were geared at unknowns.

If you want to overbet shove flops thats your business and not exploit your opponents tendencies preflop then thats your business. However, you're losing out on immense value to cards like AK/AQ that will peel one more post flop on that board but won't call a shove. You're also playing pretty risky against villians calling widely with a large range of hands since when you shove that board they are going to fold out all their trash and call with all their monsters. Remember you're representing an overpair and your hand is face up. A lot of people will put you on AA or KK and they would be right to do so. I think the shove on the flop is a bad play and regardless of what you think of my opinions in general to date I don't know if you will find many people who agree that over bet shoving the flop is good. Even if you do have the best hand almost all the time you're still losing out on value to a lot of hands worse than yours who will call a buck on the flop but won't call an overbet shove. Why are you raising yourself out of value?

I find zoom very tilting and all players so unpredictable, mixture of spewers and trappers and slow players :S

Well if there are a lot of spewers then slowplaying/trapping is a good exploitative play wouldn't you say? That said, if you find it tilting, why play it?

Yeah, I told myself I would not post at all for a long time because I'm too bad a player in general to post, then talked to someone who said you should post hands to find out if you are spewing in standard spots. I'll go back to not posting then this won't happen.

I'm still just arguing about poker and not about to insult anyone here.

I can't keep happy if my BR keeps flat at 5nl of any kind for 10k hands. It's the first time in a while I've just been stuck for thousands of hands. I am stuck at non-zoom too, although only just tried to change to playing nittier, from becoming too loose recently.

You sound like a committed guy, but this is a load of trash. I don't mean to insult you either. It just seems you can't take advice. Posting is in my opinion can be a great tool for learning. At normal tables, sure it's tough to get reads, but you're playing hand after hand with them. Discussing hands etc. Maybe some Skype buddies would be a good idea?

Well clearly you're wrong since he called with pocket 7s and if he is calling with 7s he is probably calling with lower pocket pairs. If you want to talk about unknowns rather than this particular player's range feel free to review my previous posts which were geared at unknowns.

If you want to overbet shove flops thats your business and not exploit your opponents tendencies preflop then thats your business. However, you're losing out on immense value to cards like AK/AQ that will peel one more post flop on that board but won't call a shove. You're also playing pretty risky against villians calling widely with a large range of hands since when you shove that board they are going to fold out all their trash and call with all their monsters. Remember you're representing an overpair and your hand is face up. A lot of people will put you on AA or KK and they would be right to do so. I think the shove on the flop is a bad play and regardless of what you think of my opinions in general to date I don't know if you will find many people who agree that over bet shoving the flop is good. Even if you do have the best hand almost all the time you're still losing out on value to a lot of hands worse than yours who will call a buck on the flop but won't call an overbet shove. Why are you raising yourself out of value?

Can we not agree to disagree, at least on his calling range? Go find a hand history where someone calls a 4bet with 22-55 please.

I never said this was the best line I am just arguing about his callng range.

I actually rarely overbet flops. But I'm rarely in 4bet pots, with a guy who makes a pretty standard 3bet size and calls a 4bet, who has around 85bb. It's very unusual. I'll remember not to post results again for sure.