Mid Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

i know its pretty unlikely but did u give villain a bluffing range when the heart comes OTR ? i would guess it changes very little though

i know its pretty unlikely but did u give villain a bluffing range when the heart comes OTR ? i would guess it changes very little though

The more important question is - what hands does he need to bluff with? I rarely see him having "air" in his preflop-4betting-/flop-+turn-cbetting-range ...

u are right, but can we ignore it completely ? btw how bad a call looks like in your model ?

Preflop
Definitely call. I think 3-betting here is a mistake, because by doing so, you fold out almost all suited hands = you lose your "cooler potential" (vs hands like KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, etc.). On top of that, someone might overcall behind you, which is also pretty good.
As played, flatting a 4b is meh, but give the stacks depth+pot odds+posistion I don't see any option other than calling.

Flop
The most important question now is:
- Do you think he could 4b pre with QQ with the intention to stack off for 185 bbs? If not, than he has hardly any value hands OTF
- Same question regarding TT, but here I am almost sure he simply flats the 3b OOP

Call me suicidal, but I am considering a raise/all-in line. Cause if his value range is KK+ only, we have 42.2% equity vs that range. Even if he has QQ as well, we still have 38.3%, which is also not bad.

However, we have loads of FEQ and we do want to fold out AK and AJ. I think we might force him to fold even a hand as strong as AQ, since we can rep QQ/TT very very easily.

We can raise to let's say $150 and hope he folds AK and AJ. If he will move all-in, we get 34.8% pot odds and a very easily call even vs { AQ, QQ+ }.
There should be enough FEQ in the flop raise to make the whole play +EV, since we expect Villain to 4b bluff pre at least sometimes.

1) dislike the 3bet
2) dislike the 4bet call
3) if he`s wide enough to make ur 4bet call profitabel it should be an easy stackoff on flop or turn , if not the 4bet call just suxx since u only wanna continue with 2pair +
4) as played fold or shove turn -> tackleberry explained why

1) dislike the 3bet

Agree.

2) dislike the 4bet call

It's very close!

3) if he`s wide enough to make ur 4bet call profitabel it should be an easy stackoff on flop or turn , if not the 4bet call just suxx since u only wanna continue with 2pair +

Agree.

4) as played fold or shove turn -> tackleberry explained why

Also agree here.

1) dislike the 3bet
2) dislike the 4bet call
3) if he`s wide enough to make ur 4bet call profitabel it should be an easy stackoff on flop or turn , if not the 4bet call just suxx since u only wanna continue with 2pair +
4) as played fold or shove turn -> tackleberry explained why

1st and 2nd: don`t agree that the 3bet is bad b/c of fundamentals
of deeplay (but rly do not wanna elaborate on this)
3.) stacking off OTF is imo technically not good (even though it mostly +ev in the vaccumm) b/c it is
bad for my range and for me it is important to play here my range in a profitable way, not only this
hand -> I have already more or less told why a flopraise is bad for my range.
4.) Don`t like stacking off OTT as an option well b/c I have on this card due to perceived ranges too
less FEQ.
When a turncall is rly -ev, then a fold is clearly better than a turnshove, imo.

1st and 2nd: don`t agree that the 3bet is bad b/c of fundamentals
of deeplay (but rly do not wanna elaborate on this)

Once you call the 4-bet you are not "deep" anymore.

3.) stacking off OTF is imo technically not good (even though it mostly +ev in the vaccumm) b/c it is
bad for my range and for me it is important to play here my range in a profitable way, not only this
hand -> I have already more or less told why a flopraise is bad for my range.

How often do you have a hand, where:
a) you are close to 200 bb deep
b) it is not in 3bp, but in a 4bp ?

Ultra, ultra rarely. In other words, you absolutely shouldn't care about balance in spots, which will occur once in 2 months or even less.

Once you call the 4-bet you are not "deep" anymore.

rly?
I mean, yeah I know this.
But before and before it makes sense to 3b Axs IP deep vs. most ppl.
And many ppl dislike here even the 3bet.
The call of the 4b is then another story.

1st and 2nd: don`t agree that the 3bet is bad b/c of fundamentals
of deeplay (but rly do not wanna elaborate on this)

ok so let`s just not talk about it allthough i`d rly be very interested in your reasoning why the 3bet and the call of the 4bet is a good play there!?

3.) stacking off OTF is imo technically not good (even though it mostly +ev in the vaccumm) b/c it is
bad for my range and for me it is important to play here my range in a profitable way, not only this
hand -> I have already more or less told why a flopraise is bad for my range.

agree with stackhunter here, it`s not a spot coming up often enough (esp. vs the same villain) as if we have to be worried about having our range balanced there.

4.) Don`t like stacking off OTT as an option well b/c I have on this card due to perceived ranges too
less FEQ.
When a turncall is rly -ev, then a fold is clearly better than a turnshove, imo.

yes vs a somewhat solide 4bet range its imo fold>shove>call OTT but vs that solid 4bet range the preflop call is just very bad

How often do you have a hand, where:
a) you are close to 200 bb deep
b) it is not in 3bp, but in a 4bp ?

Ultra, ultra rarely. In other words, you absolutely shouldn't care about balance in spots, which will occur once in 2 months or even less.

a.) + b.) you are actually right -> maybe I was too concerned here about a technically, somewhat balanced approach b/c I also play around 30% of my overall gamevolume zoom, where it is very often the case that you play deep (have in mistaken projected this on reg games).

Anyways,
a flopcall is also clearly +ev, so still don`t mind it tbh.
Hard to know what is more +ev w/o very good info on his play in 4b_Pots deep (could make conditions where cardrunnersEV would show me both - that either a flopcall is more +ev, or a flopraise).

agree with stackhunter here, it`s not a spot coming up often enough (esp. vs the same villain) as if we have to be worried about having our range balanced there.



yes vs a somewhat solide 4bet range its imo fold>shove>call OTT but vs that solid 4bet range the preflop call is just very bad

at your first paragraph:

as said, agree with this and here you are right - it is important to always shortly think about if a spot is recurring frequently, when you wanna think about balance - just missed this due to the previous reasoning...
Anyways, as said I still don`t hate a flopcall, but now I also don`t hate anymore a flopraise

@your 2nd paragraph:

doubt that ppl will 2ndBarl. here light even when the startingrange preflop is wider...

Besides of this, I would be interested at this stoxEV-analysis of tackleberry - @tackle:
Maybe you can post it here when you have saved it in accident and don`t mind to show it?

can the guys who hate 3bing Axs let me know what their 3b bluffing range vs UT is?

stackhunter,

are you calling preflop because of stack sizes? is this a peel for you at 100bbe? if not, at what depth do you start flatting pre?

A8s+ are good hands to flat with IP on 100 bbs (you dominate some of his hands like T8s, 98s, T9s as well as A2s-A5s if he opens them + you draw to the NFD).
So what's the point in 3-betting and forcing these hands to fold?

At this stack depth I would flat all Axs.