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If I understand it right ... by acting against PTR, PS wants to protect the fishes. But I am a fish and now I have no more protection against the sharks! Before PTR removed PS profiles, I looked at villains stats and if there were to many "Steady Eddie's" I left the table. So acting against PTR is in fact acting against the interests of the fishes and protects only the interests of the sharks ... and that's why so many DC members are happy about the fact that PS profiles were removed from PTR ... :-)

If I understand it right ... by acting against PTR, PS wants to protect the fishes. But I am a fish and now I have no more protection against the sharks! Before PTR removed PS profiles, I looked at villains stats and if there were to many "Steady Eddie's" I left the table. So acting against PTR is in fact acting against the interests of the fishes and protects only the interests of the sharks ... and that's why so many DC members are happy about the fact that PS profiles were removed from PTR ... :-)

But it usually isn't this way round. Usually the fish has never heard of PTR, and the shark can get information on them from the start of the match. They want to protect these guys.

But it usually isn't this way round. Usually the fish has never heard of PTR, and the shark can get information on them from the start of the match. They want to protect these guys.

And if PS would publish all that data, all the hand histories and the stats ... nobody could argue about cheating, because everybody would have access to the same informations.

And if PS would publish all that data, all the hand histories and the stats ... nobody could argue about cheating, because everybody would have access to the same informations.

If you've ever played at a table where someone used PTR information to berate another player, you understand how this would be horrible for the games.

If you've ever played at a table where someone used PTR information to berate another player, you understand how this would be horrible for the games.

I have always disabled the "show player/observer messages" :-)

Again, I haven't claimed that a real username adds to the student's understanding of the various types of players. I am saying your argument that "Training sites are about learning and X is not learning" was simply not true.

Did you read what you wrote there? You say that you don't claim that using a real username adds to a student's understanding; but my contention that using a real username doesn't increase learning, is simply not true. This is what I mean about you parsing words to the point of them loosing their meaning. Your statement neutralized itself out of existence.

I'm sorry but I really don't think you understand the game of poker. It isn't as simple as catagorizing someone as a type and then interchanging that type with another similar type. When someone is describing how a particular player reacts to a checkraise on the river and 3bets and floats and a myriad of other things he is showing how to beat that particular player with all of his complexities.

This idea of catagorizing players into types has its usefulness especially for new players but there comes a point where it really gets in the way of understanding the game. Using a case study is a useful way to better understand the game but anyone who thinks that someone can beat me because that someone was shown how to beat a similar "type" is going to be in for a rude awakening.

Accurately catagorizing players takes a long time to get down. I can show any new player how to beat a specific opponent in an hour. But to teach someone how to do that on his own would take a very long time.

People can't just learn their way past their games becoming overexposed. This has been a problem for a lot of instructors. But those instructors are financially compensated for that exposure, the players that they use as case studies aren't. And many probably never learn that they were featured in a training video.

I'm pretty sure I didn't.

then where do you get the 5% 3bet % from? he never even mentioned getting 3bet

No I said that it doesn't increase the understanding of how to beat various player types. It does increase the understanding of how to beat that player so it is useful to someone. In fact, f it weren't useful then it wouldn't be a problem for you.

whether someone can be taught how to beat you by learning to play versus your style is irrelevant. There certainly are groups of fish that have massively suffered in the past by videos teaching how to beat their exact style, to a much higher degree than what you're about. Why was this not unfair? Why was this not bad for poker?

Can you link me to a video where a coach sets out to allow the watcher to know the ins and outs of an opponent?

You are overstating massively the amount that these complexities of a single player can and has been taught. It's not even as if these are transferrable from the coach to another player because he will have certain history with that player, and the game is dynamic. This is also a massive oversimplification of how poker works.

I think the main reason is that it would be illegal for PS to knowingly allow PTR to gather information about their customers. (if PS customers have not agreed to it).

But I'm only guessing.

But it usually isn't this way round. Usually the fish has never heard of PTR, and the shark can get information on them from the start of the match. They want to protect these guys.

This would be true if we operated on the assumption that fish were incapable of being self-aware of their lack of abilities against the villains they play against. This can become naive as we lack the motivation/ "why" to individuals who lack an edge play against other individuals.

This would be true if we operated on the assumption that fish were incapable of being self-aware of their lack of abilities against the villains they play against. This can become naive as we lack the motivation/ "why" to individuals who lack an edge play against other individuals.

Not necessarily. They could be self-aware, but that doesn't mean they'll understand, know of, or use PTR. I think it's a fair assumption that most fish do not use PTR.

Yeah, you are probably right that most fish don't use PTR. Does this mean no sites are tracking the average player (non high stake) at this time on Stars?

I haven't heard of any that are anywhere near as effective at it than PTR was.

If I understand it right ... by acting against PTR, PS wants to protect the fishes. But I am a fish and now I have no more protection against the sharks! Before PTR removed PS profiles, I looked at villains stats and if there were to many "Steady Eddie's" I left the table. So acting against PTR is in fact acting against the interests of the fishes and protects only the interests of the sharks ... and that's why so many DC members are happy about the fact that PS profiles were removed from PTR ... :-)

true, this information can help all players at the table assess the skill level, but in reality, poker is better when people can only assess the skill level through actual play, including prior play.

No I said that it doesn't increase the understanding of how to beat various player types. It does increase the understanding of how to beat that player so it is useful to someone. In fact, f it weren't useful then it wouldn't be a problem for you.

whether someone can be taught how to beat you by learning to play versus your style is irrelevant. There certainly are groups of fish that have massively suffered in the past by videos teaching how to beat their exact style, to a much higher degree than what you're about. Why was this not unfair? Why was this not bad for poker?

Can you link me to a video where a coach sets out to allow the watcher to know the ins and outs of an opponent?

You are overstating massively the amount that these complexities of a single player can and has been taught. It's not even as if these are transferrable from the coach to another player because he will have certain history with that player, and the game is dynamic. This is also a massive oversimplification of how poker works.

I simply don't agree that training sites are bad for poker. They've caused players to step up their game but learning through play and educational material has always been a fair and fundamental part of what poker is about. But selling information about particular players, whether it is through PTR or training videos, provides stats to students about their opponents that weren't obtained at the tables, which is not what poker is about.

I'm not about to make this thread a life-time project by analyzing videos. If you won't admit that instructors give out stats on other players or go over the weaknesses of identifiable players then me providing you with links isn't going to change that.

I'm the one oversimplifying the way poker works??? You're the one who seems to think that players can simply be put in neat little catagories like TAGS or Mice or Daffy Ducks or whatever type system it is that you use. Money is made in poker by exploiting weaknesses. It's entirely possible that a Daffy Duck, Spotted Elephant and Chartreuse Orangutan all share the same weaknesses. Weaknesses aren't necessarily type dependant. Just because an instructor can spot those weaknesses doesn't mean that a student is going to spot them on his own any time soon.