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But surely HUD stats like cbet, fold to cbet, WTSD and WWSF are useful post flop stats?

I sometimes use cbet when I construct my preflop calling range.

I sometimes use cbet when I construct my preflop calling range.

So which stats do you have on your HUD and do you use a HUD often? I think you played in thin red line without a HUD?

Not sure if level. If not, villain knows what you've seen from him so far. He has 3b ~5% so far, so he knows he looks tight. Maybe he's 3betting much lighter than you anticipated because of this. Or maybe he's never bluffing the river given that he thinks he looks tight and therefore when you call 2 barrels you look very strong. Or maybe he thinks that that's what you're thinking so he can actually bluff anyway because it looks monstrous then. All the HEMs in the world won't help you here. Especially not HU.

I'm pretty sure you misread his post

SH:
VP, PFR, 3bet, cbet, fold to 3bet in position

HU:
Fold BB, 3bet, fold to 3bet

I will use one of my pop-ups <5 times in a 1.5 hour session playing 6 tables.

are you describing villain as balanced? if so there's not alot you can do anyway as he's playing perfectly, its hard to quantify how difficult being balanced is in the spot i described when your range consists of so many weak hands.

either way tho, wether he is balanced or not doing the simple calc with your post flop hm data i mentioned above you get his range...wether you call and are wrong or right is another matter ...but you can see whats hands he has....playing with no hud you can only make an estimate...which isnt as accurate.

Basically to me Sklansky's theory of poker pretty much sums up that a hud is more profitable than not playing with a hud

Say in a HU match after i dunno after 150 hands, im faced with a river spot where Vil has opened pre and bet 3 times...i have a bluff catcher, i have a timebank.

if i want to... using my hud,a calculator, and flopzilla...i can do a very simple calc using post flop data from my hud which will show me clearly the range he bets the the river with, flopzilla will then show me how his range is likely distributed...then i can decide wether or not to call given the odds im getting and how his range is distributed....all in under 20 seconds...only possible due to mainly postflop hud data.

can someone without a hud make such an accurate assesment?

Villain's river betting range depends on the range he expects you to see the river with. Not on avarages of past played hands.

Basically to me Sklansky's theory of poker pretty much sums up that a hud is more profitable than no playing with a hud

You assume that the player using the HUD understands what the numbers mean, use them correctly and he pays just as much attention to what is going on at the tables.

either way tho, wether he is balanced or not doing the simple calc with your post flop hm data i mentioned above you get his range...wether you call and are wrong or right is another matter ...but you can see whats hands he has....playing with no hud you can only make an estimate...which isnt as accurate.

You cannot see what hands he has. You can see some avg frequencies over past played hands. Which is very very different beast,

I fear you assign way to much meaning to the numbers in your HUD

I think that a HUD's usefulness is dependant on a few things. At the lower stakes where players exhibit more extremes I think that a HUD is more useful especially when multitabling. A Villain's numbers like a 50% CBet, 60%Donkbet, 0% checkraise etc. is money in bank for a HUD user. But at the higher stakes its less likely that the stats are going to be so extreme.

I think also that HUD's are useful for Limit Holdem, which is what I play. Players tend to use certain lines which become habit. If I can see on my HUD that a player is always going to call a flop bet but fold the turn when he misses, I can place less importance on my own cards and simply play against his stats. I use the Went to Showdown stat a little differently than do other people. I use it to determine the profitability of playing suited connectors and set mining at a table. Very high WSD's make these hands more profitable which allows me greater latitude in playing them. If I was only playing one table maybe I could get these reads without a HUD but multitabling makes a HUD pretty indispensable for me.

Villain's river betting range depends on the range he expects you to see the river with. Not on avarages of past played hands.

in principle i agree with what you have said, as it does play a part for sure

what im getting at is like if we have 2 different villains:

villain 1, opens 90% from the btn and triple barrels with 100% frequency

Villain 2, opens 78% from the btn, cbets the flop 87% then bets turn 90% and river 100% of the time

the flop is 9s-9s-4c turn 3d river 2h

we dont know what villain thinks we get to the river with or if indeed he's thinking about that.

which villain would you rather call with A high?

hence his range is corralated to his frequency, not perfect example but you see where im coming from

in principle i agree with what you have said, as it does play a part for sure

what im getting at is like if we have 2 different villains:

villain 1, opens 90% from the btn and triple barrels with 100% frequency

Villain 2, opens 78% from the btn, cbets the flop 87% then bets turn 90% and river 100% of the time

the flop is 9s-9s-4c turn 3d river 2h

we dont know what villain thinks we get to the river with or if indeed he's thinking about that.

which villain would you rather call with A high?

hence his range is corralated to his frequency, not perfect example but you see where im coming from

What is your sample size of that board texture run out?

My guess is 0.. and that is why the HUD data cannot be used.

this is why this game is so great....i dont think your wrong in what your saying...but i can only say what ive been taught.....both trains of thought have merit...lets be honest if we all saw poker in the same light the rake would be a heafty winner lol

nice debate

this is why this game is so great....i dont think your wrong in what your saying...but i can only say what ive been taught.....both trains of thought have merit...lets be honest if we all saw poker in he same light the rake would be a heafty winner lol

nice debate

All you have to do is ask yourself. What does the numbers _really_ mean..

I think that a HUD's usefulness is dependant on a few things. At the lower stakes where players exhibit more extremes I think that a HUD is more useful especially when multitabling. A Villain's numbers like a 50% CBet, 60%Donkbet, 0% checkraise etc. is money in bank for a HUD user. But at the higher stakes its less likely that the stats are going to be so extreme.

I think also that HUD's are useful for Limit Holdem, which is what I play. Players tend to use certain lines which become habit. If I can see on my HUD that a player is always going to call a flop bet but fold the turn when he misses, I can place less importance on my own cards and simply play against his stats. I use the Went to Showdown stat a little differently than do other people. I use it to determine the profitability of playing suited connectors and set mining at a table. Very high WSD's make these hands more profitable which allows me greater latitude in playing them. If I was only playing one table maybe I could get these reads without a HUD but multitabling makes a HUD pretty indispensable for me.

I like this post a lot. I also play LHE and I also find a hud far more useful there than in NL. Also LHE is probably the game where I'm most glad the datamined hands are gone as it gives more of an edge there.

i think they mean different things to different people

a 47% fold to flop cbet for example, might mean to one guy oh he folds 1/2 the time when i cbet kewl, to some one else it might mean if i bet 3/4 pot on the flop then in a vacum i have a +ev cbet situation, if vilain folds 42% of the time im ev neutral anymore than that im making money.

both are correct