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Oh to only be able to play on Stars again.

This is so awesome. I like making money from poker, so that's why I like that PTR is gone. I know many regfish would prefer that PTR still existed but it's overall just better for the health of the games that it's gone. Even the regfish probably end up making more money longterm from PTR being gone due to better health of the games.

The reason the health of the games improves is that PTR only kills action, it never creates any. If there are no games and no action then there's no edge to be hand in the first place. A bit edge of the poker professional is accurately assessing the edge vs their competitors, removing this skill entirely from the game also removes another edge.

Anyone who isn't genuinely concerned about datamined hands definitely falls into the regfish category, there's just so much damage done from datamined hands being in the public domain. From making it much easier to get high level bots running and making it far easier for unknown opponents to have an edge over you there's not a lot of good that comes out of it.

Best post in thread.

Agree wholeheartedly.

I saw the funniest thing the other day. A fish made an absolutely terrible AIOTF call vs. a regfish (gutter call for 80BB or something). . . fish got there, obviously. Regfish berated the $%&* out of him and then started quoting his PTR and why he's a losing player. Fish replies "I'll go give your money away to someone else then" and promptly left the table, only to be replaced by a winning reg.

I hate PTR. Always have.

This is a good development. It may have came too late is all.

quite funny that we want to be able to use a programme called holdem manager that creates "cyborg" notes about the people we sit with at the poker table, so we can gain an edge over them and win their money...but we think data mining is unfair because it gives unknowns an unfair advantage over us....but then again we also want to smoke and drink all day and night and live till were 110....i also like to have my cake and eat it lol....even tho i agree that PTR isnt good for the games, i still use HM to gain a gross edge vs the recreational player...which has no doubt contributed emmensely to culling of the fish population.

quite funny that we want to be able to use a programme called holdem manager that creates "cyborg" notes about the people we sit with at the poker table, so we can gain an edge over them and win their money...but we think data mining is unfair because it gives unknowns an unfair advantage over us....but then again we also want to smoke and drink all day and night and live till were 110....i also like to have my cake and eat it lol....even tho i agree that PTR isnt good for the games, i still use HM to gain a gross edge vs the recreational player...which has no doubt contributed emmensely to culling of the fish population.

Comparing HEM to datamining is apples to oranges imo. HEM doesn't us with unseen information, it just keeps track and reminds us of things we've seen. Datamining on the other hand gives the player entirely new information on players and hands that they haven't seen. The difference is that HEM is not providing us with information that we wouldn't be privy to already if we just mentally tracked what each player does with each hand, while datamining provides us with data that we have not and could not have naturally attained.

Comparing HEM to datamining is apples to oranges imo. HEM doesn't us with unseen information, it just keeps track and reminds us of things we've seen. Datamining on the other hand gives the player entirely new information on players and hands that they haven't seen. The difference is that HEM is not providing us with information that we wouldn't be privy to already if we just mentally tracked what each player does with each hand, while datamining provides us with data that we have not and could not have naturally attained.

yea your not wrong in what you have said defo.

thing is data mining is only possible due to holdem manager and such programmes.

Side question: if a grinder is 15-tabling, how can he profile 135 players?

yea your not wrong in what you have said defo.

thing is data mining is only possible due to holdem manager and such programmes.

How so? Back in the day hand histories were available for observed hands directly in the clients. Then after that went away I'd imagine that PTR and other sites went to some sort of screen scraping software.

how many people do you think would still be buying datamined hands from PTR if they couldnt plug them into software?? probs just rainman and his brother lol.

i just think we (myself included) are happy to have a monsterous edge vs a guy not running holdem manager but were not happy about Jo 90 we have never played before knowing that we 3bet 8.4% from the bb from his datamined h/h.....it could be said we could adjust our bb 3bet range in this case as easy as the guy who doesnt use holdem manager could go out and buy it and learn how to use it.

how many people do you think would still be buying datamined hands from PTR if they couldnt plug them into software?? probs just rainman and his brother lol.

i just think we (myself included) are happy to have a monsterous edge vs a guy not running holdem manager but were not happy about Jo 90 we have never played before knowing that we 3bet 8.4% from the bb from his datamined h/h.....it could be said we could adjust our bb 3bet range in this case as easy as the guy who doesnt use holdem manager could go out and buy it and learn how to use it.

I think you overestimate how much of an edge HEM gives.

gotta disagree there Improva, i think we simply take the edge it gives us for granted, its like HEM is as part of us when we play online poker as our mouse finger is.

i dont know how id play hu without it...i mean sure i could still play with solid fundermentals and make reads and plays based on what i had seen villain do...but how would i be able to accuratly asses ranges/equilibruim defense frequency/ the profitability of cbet bet size based on villaind folding frequencys...the list is endless....i cud guesstimate all of the above but with far far less accuracy thus making less money.

gotta disagree there Improva, i think we simply take the edge it gives us for granted, its like HEM is as part of us when we play online poker as our mouse finger is.

i dont know how id play hu without it...i mean sure i could still play with solid fundermentals and make reads and plays based on what i had seen villain do...but how would i be able to accuratly asses ranges/equilibruim defense frequency/ the profitability of cbet bet size based on villaind folding frequencys...the list is endless....i cud guesstimate all of the above but with far far less accuracy thus making less money.

Now I _REALLY_ think you overestimate your HUD. HUD numbers don't tell you how villain's construct his ranges. Postflop a HUD is more or less useless.

But surely HUD stats like cbet, fold to cbet, WTSD and WWSF are useful post flop stats?

Say in a HU match after i dunno after 150 hands, im faced with a river spot where Vil has opened pre and bet 3 times...i have a bluff catcher, i have a timebank.

if i want to... using my hud,a calculator, and flopzilla...i can do a very simple calc using post flop data from my hud which will show me clearly the range he bets the the river with, flopzilla will then show me how his range is likely distributed...then i can decide wether or not to call given the odds im getting and how his range is distributed....all in under 20 seconds...only possible due to mainly postflop hud data.

can someone without a hud make such an accurate assesment?

Say in a HU match after i dunno after 150 hands, im faced with a river spot where Vil has opened pre and bet 3 times...i have a bluff catcher, i have a timebank.

if i want to... using my hud,a calculator, and flopzilla...i can do a very simple calc using post flop data from my hud which will show me clearly the range he bets the the river with, flopzilla will then show me how his range is likely distributed...then i can decide wether or not to call given the odds im getting and how his range is distributed....all in under 20 seconds...only possible due to mainly postflop hud data.

can someone without a hud make such an accurate assesment?

Not sure if level. If not, villain knows what you've seen from him so far. He has 3b ~5% so far, so he knows he looks tight. Maybe he's 3betting much lighter than you anticipated because of this. Or maybe he's never bluffing the river given that he thinks he looks tight and therefore when you call 2 barrels you look very strong. Or maybe he thinks that that's what you're thinking so he can actually bluff anyway because it looks monstrous then. All the HEMs in the world won't help you here. Especially not HU.