Beginner Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

I wanted to get in the pot with the BTN and BB. Other than that I have no special read on the BB - not enough that it trumps the information I acquire during the hand.

Poker Stars $2/$4 Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 421700
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is SB with 2 A
UTG raises, 1 fold, BTN calls, Hero calls, BB calls

Flop: (8 SB) A Q 4 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG folds, BTN folds, Hero calls

Turn: (5 BB) J (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls

River: (7 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises...

Change the K to a K and I like your river play, otherwise I just c/c and pray for busted 's, because once he bets the river I don't see a chopping Ax or 2pair type hand folding.

I used to try this once in a while but I don't think it's ever worked.

Since you want to get in the pot with him, I'll assume he's bad. If he's weak-tight, he might fold a chop or weak two pair, but I don't think he would have bet the river in the first place. If he's loose-passive, I don't think he even folds a chop. If he's a bad LAG, he'll call any A or 2pair putting you on a bluff raise.

Not sure what I think of the play...

There are lots of hands that still might beat you, lots that chop, but with you having an Ace, that filters out many. And what hands bet then call and still lose?

You don't say "why" you want to get involved with this guy, so I will assume:

1. Weak -- few bet here into the PFR without an ace?
2. LAGgy-- some would bet, but the turn and river hurt you since they make many of his hands for him.
3. spewy-- maybe he is on busted draw, if so, he will either fold, or re raise puttting YOU to the test?

Not saying you are not making a good play here, just saying I am not at a level able to understand it. Yet. But that is why I am on the forum

which

preflop is a fold and I don't think it's close. I also hate the play. you're targetting a pretty narrow range here and that might not even fold. I'd probably just c/f the river.

I wanted to get in the pot with the BTN and BB.

Does this mean UTG is solid? If so I def muck pf. If he's a weirdo I don't mind the CC though.

I think the river play is weird as hell tbh. When you say you want to get in the pot with BB I interpret that as he is loose/bad in some way. BF two-pair is typically not a standard play for these guys. The trick with turning a SD hand into a bluff is to realize when it doesn't have any SD value anymore. In this hand that is not the case. I mean there is a fine chance he has a FD or a A-rag, giving you the pot (or half).

Suppose he 3-bets, then u sit there and hate life wondering if he is going nutz with a FD. I think XC is the play here.

I'd probably just c/f the river.

I hate that line too .

I think pf is close and folding is probably better.

I also cc the river. Too fancy without a good read IMO

preflop is a fold and I don't think it's close. I also hate the play. you're targetting a pretty narrow range here and that might not even fold. I'd probably just c/f the river.

Nina, I'm not sure if you're teasing me here, but if PF is a fold (and I admit it might be) it can't be nearly as bad as you say. I will accept the rest of you post (even if I don't agree).

Does this mean UTG is solid? If so I def muck pf. If he's a weirdo I don't mind the CC though.

Yeah, I can see how that interpretation is fair, but really I just didn't want to spell out every little bit of information I had in my OP. I'd say UTG is o-kay. Not a weirdo per se, but neither really nitty nor maniacal.

I think the river play is weird as hell tbh. When you say you want to get in the pot with BB I interpret that as he is loose/bad in some way. BF two-pair is typically not a standard play for these guys.

Again another fair reading on your part. If anything I'd say that BB seems to be a bad TAG - like he has some of the right ideas but there are application problems.

I would have folded to a 3-bet but really I'm expecting to be 3-bet almost 0% here.

And to address everything else more generally...

My primary consideration is that the pot is large and I want to win ALL of it.

I feel like a lot of people are saying he can have two pair here. Despite how my board reading skills may look in Elephant Tamer I do realize that I lose to two pair here. And I can appreciate that it might not fold.

The thing is, I don't really see many two pair hands in his range. Are people arguing that he has AK, failed to 3-bet PF or x/r the flop? Or that he never wanted to put a raise in with AQ? Or that he donked KQ/QJ for no real reason? Honestly, what realistic two pair combos does BB have? Obviously this argument would also apply to hands stronger than two pair (where the lack of a x/r makes even LESS sense).

I felt he had a lot of Ax hands and maybe some stuff. If he has hearts then I really haven't hurt myself by raising (against ONLY that part of the range). If he has Ax, then my bet kind of seems like a freeroll bet - either he calls and we chop or he folds and I've gained half the pot.

Ah this is makng a lot more sense now. If ur assumptions are corrcet the play is good. However I think they are questionable agaisnt a relative unknow.

First the donk. I agree that A-rag is the first hand I put him on, but with a weak read I def keep his range a lot more open. Secondly that he value-bet A-rag on the river. I think that's a clear misstake on his part. Thirdly that he folds Ax to ur XR. I agree that u are very unlikely to get 3-bet bluffed though. I also point out the obvious fact that all 11+8 combos of T X + AT are in his range.

Does the player you sketch exist, absolutely, but it's not my default assumtion.

I think pf is close and folding is probably better.

I also cc the river. Too fancy without a good read IMO

my simplistic thoughts as well.

I really only like calling the river because the pot got big pf due to the cold callers, otherwise it's closer to x/f imo.

I can see that Ax no kicker is near the bottom of our calling range here, making it a candidate for bluffing the river. That thought is cool, but it feels like we value cut ourselves on the river against all 2pair/set hands that won't fold. 2 flush draws missed on this board, giving him more reason to call with QJ.

I like your thoughts here Pyg, but I'm not sure if the pot is big enough to merit your play. You're investing 2 BB to win 4 BB (half of an 8 BB pot). So we need him to have and fold Ax 33% of the time, assuming he never folds anything better than Ax or calls with anything worse (fair assumptions imo).

So let's look at his range. Against busted FD's, lower pairs, etc it doesn't really matter what we do here as long as we don't fold. The area of his range that matters is Ax and better.

If we assume he always folds his Ax, then only 33% of his range needs to be Ax which I think is fine and likely. If he never folds his Ax then 100% of his range needs to be Ax (otherwise it's a losing play against his better hands and breakeven against everything else). I guess I'd estimate 40% of bad taggish players will fold Ax here, so if he folds it 40% of the time, it will be 82% of his range that is Ax or better needs to be composed of A-rag for this play to be profitable. That's pretty borderline, but probably right around what I would assume.

So I suppose using those baseline assumptions, what it comes down to is your estimate of how often he folds Ax here. If you think a player of that description does it more than 50% of the time I think you have a good raise. Interesting spot for sure though, got me doing maths which is always a good thing in my book.