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Sneakers

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Joined 09/2009

LOL
Hold on Razor. AssJiggler said he would be back today.
I'll respond to a bit of your response to mine.

.... but there was no law against superusing, and no one who could shut them down - except government, despite not having a regulation against superusing. In any case, the overall point stands. If there's no obstacle to cheating, someone will cheat. UB survived for a variety of reasons.


With arguments like this, Wow!
I have a problem with this Razor. Your logic is a bit frustrating at times. No laws against superusing? Of course there are. Cheating = Fraud. Get it. Easy Game. Same as SOPA. Existing laws already.
Note: did I miss something in the thread? Do you agree with the idea for SOPA. Seriously.

<snip>This is the fault of the people who send them there. The people have taken the concept of sending a representative to central government to act on their behalf, and made it sending a representative to central government to get things from it.


Agree with the latter part. Santa Clauses. Look. Since the current administration has been in office (3 years), $6trillion dollars on top of the starting $10trillion debt -- in only 3 years. CRONYISM, Bad-Investments, and Social Engineering.
The first part? Who the heck sent Barney Frank, Pelosi, and Harry Reid? Money grubbing bandits.
Wait a second. I feel a gasket starting to blow, just thinking about those clowns.. lol

Indeed, the wealthy determine the rules.


NO, The politicians make the mountain of rules......that only need a team of lawyers and accountants to decipher and get through them. Rich guys are smart guys (or pay smart guys). Excessive regulations screw everyone else -- except those who can circumvent it.
Always has been that way. Always will be that way.

Regulations always stack the deck against the little guy -- inadvertedly creating more barriers.
In practice, maybe. Innately, no.


Whatever that means. All we should care about, is what happens in real life -- not someone's peace-pipe-theory about how it could be. Seriously.

Razor, not trying to personal with you. But I would love to see you admit the government screws up A LOT. I would love to hear you say that you agree that, Barney Frank screwed the pooch pre-housing-crisis -- and is now skipping town (rather than face re-election).
Come on, be honest. lol

Posted over 1 year ago

improva

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3767 posts
Joined 02/2008

Am I a member of the tribe, and I assume we all know oil is a valuable commodity?



Yes and yes.

Posted over 1 year ago

Steppin Razor

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Section 9
2237 posts
Joined 12/2009

With arguments like this, Wow!
I have a problem with this Razor. Your logic is a bit frustrating at times. No laws against superusing? Of course there are. Cheating = Fraud. Get it. Easy Game.


Why did no one involved go to jail? Because there was no regulation.

Note: did I miss something in the thread? Do you agree with the idea for SOPA. Seriously.


No. This whole debate started because I made some offhand comment about how certain people who were against SOPA were amusing since SOPA aims to protect intellectual property rights, which they think is mandatory for free markets.


NO, The politicians make the mountain of rules......that only need a team of lawyers and accountants to decipher and get through them. Rich guys are smart guys (or pay smart guys). Excessive regulations screw everyone else -- except those who can circumvent it.
Always has been that way. Always will be that way.


Now you're disagreeing with yourself. The politicians are the tools of the wealthy. They are the big guns.

Whatever that means. All we should care about, is what happens in real life -- not someone's peace-pipe-theory about how it could be. Seriously.


It's a very important distinction. If regulations were to innately stack the deck against the little guy, it means that there is absolutely no way to make a regulation without disproprtionately hurting little guys. No matter how you word it.

Razor, not trying to personal with you. But I would love to see you admit the government screws up A LOT. I would love to hear you say that you agree that, Barney Frank screwed the pooch pre-housing-crisis -- and is now skipping town (rather than face re-election).
Come on, be honest. lol


To the first, look up. To the second, agreeing with you =/= honesty.






Anyway, improva's exercise is the best way to examine the issue from here. I'll play later tonight.

Posted over 1 year ago

Sneakers

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2021 posts
Joined 09/2009

Why did no one involved go to jail? Because there was no regulation.

To be honest, I will need to go back and look at the details. As I remember, they paid everyone off -- and avoided court. Also, it was on a Tribal land, but not sure how that affects laws of deceny (fraud and theft of the public).

But to say there is no law (regulation) is not correct. Any damage to other people can have its day in court -- especially in the US/Canada. Which is also one of the biggest problems with healthcare costs. A need for Tort reform (completely different and long subject).

No. This whole debate started because I made some offhand comment about how certain people who were against SOPA were amusing since SOPA aims to protect intellectual property rights, which they think is mandatory for free markets.

Ahhhh okay. I remember you making similar comments when online poker got shut down in Washington State. I think they ended up locking that thread. LOL

Now you're disagreeing with yourself. The politicians are the tools of the wealthy. They are the big guns.

Not just the wealthy. How about Unions, Community Organizers, Environmentalists, and other Special-Rights groups?
Unions and Environmentilism were something I once believed in, But like everything, when they go overboard with their power and political control -- we lose the equilibrium of the system IMO. All of these "Special" groups are like regulations. Too much is bad. Over the top.

It's a very important distinction. If regulations were to innately stack the deck against the little guy, it means that there is absolutely no way to make a regulation without disproprtionately hurting little guys. No matter how you word it.

And that is the reason to keep laws clear and simple. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would not think our civil/tax laws are convoluted and ridiculous at times. A law to support a law....to support the other law....and on and on. Same thing happens with every government agency.

What it all becomes is reverse-discrimination. Jealousy. Class warfare. Not justice.
Che Guevara is a folk-hero to many. Most don't know the real story of his justice system. He was called the Butcher of CabaƱas.

Note: I will come back later to answer the UB question. Need to get some sleep.


Anyway, improva's exercise is the best way to examine the issue from here. I'll play later tonight.

Not even close IMO. Everyone was on an island. We need a leader. Let's build a society.
Oh yeah! Everyone important is dead. Didn't you see 'LOST'? LOL
...... Create a different thread, and I will participate in the fantasy board game.
I loved Age of Empires (a little different. LOL)

Posted over 1 year ago

Tuneman07

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381 posts
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Interesting point about the UB situation- I suppose there is no law against super using but wouldn't seeing people's cards be a violation of the rules of poker? Isn't there some sort of rule in the contract with UB when you sign up that the rules of poker will be followed? So this would be a civil violation of a contract. UB could be sued and the free market enforces the law of common sense because no one wants to play at UB. The last thing we want is crazy over regulation of just about anything that stems from this desire to stop all bad things from happening ever in any situation.

This is why I argue there shouldn't be a health department- it clogs up real businesses who are passionate and want to provide good food but doesn't do anything to stop dirty nasty restaurants with trashball employees from spitting in your food. The market is far more effective against the trashballs than any gov't inspector ever will be.

Posted over 1 year ago

Steppin Razor

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Section 9
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Sneakers wrote:

Not just the wealthy. How about Unions, Community Organizers, Environmentalists, and other Special-Rights groups?
Unions and Environmentilism were something I once believed in, But like everything, when they go overboard with their power and political control -- we lose the equilibrium of the system IMO. All of these "Special" groups are like regulations. Too much is bad. Over the top.


Unions are wealthy. I don't know what you think community organizers do, but they aren't particularly powerful. Neither are environmentalists, though it's difficult both to define one, and to gauge the impact when much of what passes is due to common sense - radioactive water is bad to drink, you don't need a treehugger to tell you that. And sure, there are other groups that wield political power through their voting blocs. But those who dominate and most consistently control government are wealthy. Not all wealthy people as individuals, but wealthy corporations and the people who make them up.

Tuneman wrote:

Interesting point about the UB situation- I suppose there is no law against super using but wouldn't seeing people's cards be a violation of the rules of poker? Isn't there some sort of rule in the contract with UB when you sign up that the rules of poker will be followed? So this would be a civil violation of a contract. UB could be sued and the free market enforces the law of common sense because no one wants to play at UB. The last thing we want is crazy over regulation of just about anything that stems from this desire to stop all bad things from happening ever in any situation.


Sure, you can sue anyone for anything. Somehow I doubt the TOS of sites covers their own employees though. And it would probably be a question as to whether the civil court was the appropriate venue.
People still played at UB. I did. Agreed we don't want crazy overregulation. Be nice though if there was a rule that said don't hand player deposits out as dividend payments.

This is why I argue there shouldn't be a health department- it clogs up real businesses who are passionate and want to provide good food but doesn't do anything to stop dirty nasty restaurants with trashball employees from spitting in your food. The market is far more effective against the trashballs than any gov't inspector ever will be.


I seriously doubt that. There's a wide range of nasty stuff that can go in your food and not make you sick. I think FenderJaguar mentioned in either a blog post or video about a guy at the pizza shop he worked at jerking off in the dough. I doubt the free market ever caught that guy.

Posted over 1 year ago

Steppin Razor

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Section 9
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I admittedly should tone down some of my rhetoric, but in my defense at no point did I call steppin razor the person "ignorant" or "retarded". I said one of his arguments (redefining market barriers) was retarded and I said that he displayed ignorance of banking/monetary theory, which just means lacking some fundamental knowledge of something, not that he's an ignorant or retarded person (he's quite the opposite). There's a difference.


Somehow I missed this. I don't have a single issue with anything you've said regarding that kind of stuff. That's just fun debating. I hope you've taken my posts the same way.
I'd happily buy you a beer if we hung out.

Posted over 1 year ago

Sneakers

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Unions are wealthy. I don't know what you think community organizers do, but they aren't particularly powerful. Neither are environmentalists, though it's difficult both to define one, and to gauge the impact when much of what passes is due to common sense - radioactive water is bad to drink, you don't need a treehugger to tell you that.


** Community Organizer example = Obama Often these people become members of congress -- and/or lobby them for laws and cash.

** Unions are not wealthy in the sense that you are arguing. They are a collective group of people, with an over-reaching arm into the current adminstration.

Environmentalists are not wealthy? You are definitely out of touch and you lose credibilty in your argument, if you do not think Environmentalists are wealthy and overly powerful with the government. They are passing laws everyday that affect the pocket-book of everyone. <-- it is a religous cult. Gore and Friends are worth millions with the hysteria they have promoted.
Edit: seems Al Gore is worth over $100million. Amassed since he left the VP office.

** Passing laws about what kind of light-bulb I can buy? BS.
** Trying to pass laws that we have to paint our cars a certain color -- to stop global-warming. BS.
** Trying to pass Carbon Tax laws? Abusive....and manipulates the Economy and Markets negatively.
** Trying to pass laws that make it more expensive for me to drive my SUV? Abusive. I already pay more in my gas mileage/insurance. Why tax me more for something YOU do not believe in? Why is your agenda more important than mine? Not jusice. Not objective.

The list is endless.......and your response is exactly why I disagree with bigger government and their abuses of power.
BTW, Patrick Moore, one of the early members of GreenPeace, left the organization -- exactly because they (Sierra Club included) became abusive and wealthy lawyer-laden organizations. I used to give money to the Sierra Club. Never again. They are criminal and act with Impunity IMO.

No one wants to drink radioactive water. Silly extreme argument. New laws/regulations not needed.

And sure, there are other groups that wield political power through their voting blocs. But those who dominate and most consistently control government are wealthy. Not all wealthy people as individuals, but wealthy corporations and the people who make them up.


It is clear that you are stuck on disparity/fairness. You ignore the realities of the market given, and I have yet to see you bash any abuse of the system (except Bush and wealthy people). Every time someone presents examples, you go back to the subject of disparity/fairness. It is clearly Utopian Marxism. Redistribuion of wealth, using the Government's boot to force theft and discrimination.


I seriously doubt that. There's a wide range of nasty stuff that can go in your food and not make you sick. I think FenderJaguar mentioned in either a blog post or video about a guy at the pizza shop he worked at jerking off in the dough. I doubt the free market ever caught that guy.


This is another silly argument. You need Govt regulations to stop some sick guy like that? How about a good old ass-kicking and serious jail time (by laws already on the book)?
......But what are you going to do? Make another law specifically targeting this action. Again, your arguments for more Government regulation to strengthen laws already on the books. It also shows the weakness of your group to enforce laws -- rather than continuously legislating new laws.

The more I hear this argument, the more I lean to the LIbertarian side. Too many control-freaks trying to tell us how to live our lives -- and like to leverage the Government for their agenda (via mountains of regulations/laws).

BTW, for everything you argue, it really is not possible for you to be against SOPA. It is everything you are arguing for, from what I can see/hear. More stringent laws.

Posted over 1 year ago

Steppin Razor

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Um, yeah, I never argued for more regulations. I argued some should exist.

Unions are organizations that are wealthy. And most of them are run in the teamster paradigm, which is not beneficial to anyone but union leaders. Also, I said environmentalists weren't particularly powerful, not that Al Gore wasn't wealthy.

As for the doughboy, the free market won't catch him any better than the health department would.




Improva's game:
The size of government has nothing to do with the laws it can pass. Using the US as an example is a bad idea. Way too complex and personal for many.

Let us assume the country is a piece of land.

- Population 2 million (tribal).
- The old tribe leaders all died yesterday.
- There is no sense of private property (everything belongs to the tribe).
- You suspect that there is oil (not a ton but some in the underground).
- There are a couple of schools and a church

Now what?


First thing is I fence off the area and create the word 'mine' and therefore the sense of private property. Then I recruit enough people with the promise of stuff that they can call theirs to keep everyone else off of 'my land'.

Posted over 1 year ago

Sneakers

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Joined 09/2009

My Definition of Anarchy
I have read this word used throughout the thread.

One very important thing to realize. The US is not a "democracy". It is a representative Republic.
If we had full-blown "democracy"......we would then have "anarchy".
The Mob would rule. Hysteria would tread on everyone's freedoms. My/Your rights would not matter anymore.

With that understood, this is why I believe it is important to temper support of Unions and all types of organizations that want to influence our justice/economic system. Congress should fight BS legislation/cronyism -- and not simply kowtow to every whim of a President (who is not a King).

That is why the system is setup as it is. No one with complete power to make dictatorial laws/decisions. It avoids King's rule and Mob rule (anarchy).

Posted over 1 year ago

Sneakers

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Um, yeah, I never argued for more regulations. I argued some should exist.


Then no one is in disagreement here. Unfortuanely, I think you do argue/defend for more regulations and government manipulation of markets.

I do not Think AJ or anyone has promoted zero laws.....rather a true Free Market -- with normal game rules -- and absent of GOVT manipulation of the markets (for their given agendas/special-interests)

But Razor, every discussion like this, has you defending/promoting govt as if it was an essential part of capitalism. I really have not seen middle ground in your arguments. That is okay, but so far you have not convince me of anything -- except that your main fight is disparity/fairness/redistribution.

Unions are organizations that are wealthy. And most of them are run in the teamster paradigm, which is not beneficial to anyone but union leaders. Also, I said environmentalists weren't particularly powerful, not that Al Gore wasn't wealthy.

I will concede with the first part, regarding Union power (and where the wealth goes). But again, you are not living in reality, if you believe the Environmentalists "are not particularly powerful". They are some of the biggest influencers on our laws today. I just gave you some very simple examples of the abuse.
NOTE: The worst part is that the Environmentalists have taken it to little kids classroom. Liberal agenda. We must save planet earth. Tell your parents Powerful stuff. Hitler did that, right? Hitler's Youth? Get them when they are young and feed them the propoganda.

The scary part to me, is you do not seem to see it -- or you are not admitting it (because it would support the opposite side of the argument.

Mountains of new legislation, but the Environmentalists are not powerful?

As for the doughboy, the free market won't catch him any better than the health department would.

Not really an argument, actually kind of lame example. A state without laws would have had this guy pummeled. LOL What would you do, if that happened to your family? LOL
Health Department? Another government agency? I will agree for a limited version of it.....but not to catch sicko pizza makers. LOL

Posted over 1 year ago

Ass Get to Jigglin

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Not true. Greed and corruption is the most evident in government.



and most rampant, as it has a monopoly over the use of force/coercion. At the very least, its equal. But this equal amount of corruption leads to worse outcomes because of the monopoly the State has.


Even indirectly? That restraints my property rights. I can no longer use my lake as I see fit. And as for my right to damage your property, what can you do about it?



Yes, you cannot damage my property. I can't shoot bags of garbage into the air out of a bazooka and then whatever property they land on just say I was using my property how I wanted. Free speech exists, but there's still laws against slander. You have a right to do what you want so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

Already answered what can be done about before. See below too.



Pot calling the kettle IMO.
It is and it isn't that simple. The concept is that simple, the application is complex. Much like economics both is and isn't as simple as supply and demand. Of course I would first do a cost benefit analysis to killing your hitmen, and I might hire guys like me in Battlefield 3, who only succeed in getting their ass kicked. I may not need to hire hitmen, I may just need to dam my lake and your river goes away. Ultimately, when you pare down to the essential, it is that without a system I am required to comply with, the only restraint on me is how far I am willing to take it, and how far can I afford to take it.


As for political philosophers, they inhabit the world of academia. They are able to ensconce themselves in concept without ever needing to apply. They issue forth on anarchy while seeking tenure so they can't be fired. They exert their power on school presidents once they have it. An academic lives in unreality. I would weight the opinion of someone who experienced running a business in a variety of systems more than a philosopher.



Yes, even academics have to live in the real world haha Clearly, they need jobs and want to live the best life they can given whatever circumstances they find themselves in. To suggest that an academic is a hypocrite because the seek tenure doesn't hold any weight. Just because they make the best of the system that happens to exist right doesn't mean they support that system. I don't believe in social security, but if I'm forced to pay into it for years I'll at least try to get something back and take my check when it's time.



Which book? And what does it matter whether they were journalists or not? A journalist collects facts. Are you not interested in facts? Of course an economist would be in a better position to guess outcomes in economic affairs. Journalists are in a better position to record information, develop sources, and report those things in writing. That's why journalists seek out people involved in events and research those events. I seriously doubt an Austrian economist could do that, and I certainly wouldn't hold it against him.



An economist would be much better at collecting data and explaining why an economic collapse happened (even better is if they can do it before it happens! which is what the free market economists did). They actually have deep understandings of how those things work. I'll take an economists account on something over a journalists any day.



Pure speculation, with unsupportable assertions.


Lol well when you do the same thing that caused it in the first place (print money, monetize the debt, keep interest rates below market level, increase the amount of fractional reserve banking), it will obviously make it worse. Those assertions are 100% supportable. The Fed just announced today that interest rates are going to stay at 0 til 2014. That's insane. Obama wants 1.2T in more debt. The entitlements are getting out of control. Congress forms a "super-committee" to cut a microscopic amount of spending out of the proposed increases and they can't even agree to something. You can't keep borrowing money and printing it to pay it off and expect that money to keep its value. When dramatically increase the supply of X, X loses its value.





ridiculous.


How? Strong central governments have been tyrannical for thousands of years of history. Nations stard becoming wealthy when free enterprise is introduced and private property protected (from others and from the government).




According to your second sentence, it's utterly true. Assuming you are correct, that capitalism requires a system of laws, then laws would be a precondition before capitalism could exist. They would not be of capitalism. Man, there's so much in that little etc. Like dump what he chooses to in his own lake.


If society were to turn anarchic all of a sudden, laws would come about on a free market through the development of private courts/judges/arbitrators/inter-agency arbiter agreements.






Please provide a regulation to derivatives trading that existed prior to the current administration.


Central banking.

Example: A and B flip a coin. If A wins, he gets B's car. If B wins, he get's A's car. If both cars' value is about $10k, this bet created a $10k derivative that can now be added to the $600 trillion derivatives "market"

In the above scenario, the assumption is that both A and B each have (own) a car to transfer to the other when he loses the bet. Person C couldn't care less how the two cars are allocated between A and B. A problem arises when A and/or B don't actually have (own) enough assets to cover all potential loses if all their bets went against them -- like betting on 3 cars while each only owning one. Enter central banking, fractional reserve banking, and the implicit backing of governments "protecting the economy" and derivatives now allow both A and B to bet on much more than they own, and person C (taxpayer) becomes a sucker player in the A-B bet.

In a free market A and B should be able to voluntarily bet on anything they actually own, without affecting person C. Central banking, fractional reserve banking, and governments "protecting the economy" are the means by which A and B can bet on MORE than they own thereby inevitably involving the unsuspecting sucker C into their bet.

The Fed and Central banking which flooded the system with artificial money/credit all while claiming that they've reached a new era where modern macroeconomic/monetary policy has reduced the volatility of the business cycle (Bernanke's "Great Moderation") created false optimism about the likelihood of collapses/recessions. The inflation (both monetarily and psychological) caused the speculation and over-valuation of financial assets.

Our entire monetary and banking system wasn't/isn't a free market. We have central economic planners. Stop denying the facts. This is why Ron Paul voted against the repeal of the Glass Steagel Act. Not because he's for regulations, but because he knew that as long as the Federal Reserve is the lender of last resort and there are guarantees from FDIC, the risks and loses will be transferred to the taxpayer (moral hazard). That's right, the biggest proponent of free markets in the public eye voted against the repeal of Glass Steagel because of moral hazards that would be caused by government. That should tell you about whether or not we had free markets.

Derivatives didn't even exist when the Great Depression hit, and that was caused by the Federal Reserve and the Government.



Watch out, here's comes your petard. If fractional reserve banking is more profitable, why would banks choose the less profitable 100% reserve if there were no restraint on reserve holdings?



There would be restraint on reserve holdings! The restraint is that it is fraud/counterfeit. But today the government/central banking makes it legal. If I pay you money to keep my gold safe for me with the expectation that I can have access to that whenever I need/want it (on demand), but you loan 80% of it out to someone else not expecting me to ask for it, and then I ask for it and you don't have it, that's fraud. Not only would that be illegal, but under a free market banks that did that wouldn't get business.

Its no different if thousands of people give you their money to store for them and you can't meet those obligations were they to all ask for their money at the same time. Now I can give you my money to loan out in return for intereset if we voluntarily agree to that, but thats different that fractional reserving demand/checking deposits.

But the government/central bank provides allows banks to do that, both legally and by providing liquidity, ie artificial money. And when this happens, the supply of money (M1) is increased dramatically. The numbers are really absurd. Checking deposits have been like 50 times the actual cash reserves in the banks. I think in like in the last 11 years its been an increase of 70% of the total of the last 88 years before that.













It's a good thing that has nothing to do with why bubbles occur.
"



lmao. Did you read my post? I pretty much agreed with the above when I said that malinvestment still occurs even without central banks, BUT *the malinvestment doesn't occur occur on anywhere near the same scale such that it throws an entire nations economy into a deep recession.* Mild recessions are part of basic market corrections, and are not to be frowned upon. Deep recessions caused by central banks inflating the money supply are.

To say "nothing to do with why bubbles occur" is dumb. a) it creates bubbles that otherwise wouldn't have occurred, and b) it makes bubbles that would have occurred much much worse and thus the subsequent burst much much worse.








It's not silly to say that if you can't make me, I'm gonna keep doing it. That's as inevitable as death.



I'll try to lay out some basic arguments about why your argument about the need for a central government enforcer to lay down the law is ridiculously flawed as succinctly and as shortly as I can.

There's a lot more points to be made that I won't get into, but for you to dismiss it as totally nonviable is shallow-minded.

Regarding your argument that private protection agencies would constantly be clashing/warring with each other (my hit man is tougher than yours!).

a) This isn't true, but let's assume for sake of argument that it is true. Well, since there would be no overall State, no central or single local government, we would at least be spared the atrocities of inter-State (inter-central-government) wars. It's clear that the number of people killed in isolated neighborhood conflicts is absolutely nothing compared to the total mass destruction that has been caused by inter-government wars? Under anarchy with a multitude of private police/protection agencies, the only clashes that could break out would be local, and the weapons would be limited in scope and devastation. They could not use nuclear destruction, germ warfare, or other other forms of mass destruction since they would be blowing themselves and their property up too, as they are in the same geographic area.

It's the slicing off territorial areas into single government monopolies leads to mass destruction. When this happens, WMD's can be used, since it will be only "the enemy," the other country, that is hurt.

Moreover, when every person is the subject of a monopoly government, then in the eyes of every other government, those people very often become identified with their government. I'm associated with the US, so if China attacks the US, it will attack me and the other citizens as well as those directly part of the government. But if company A clashes with company B, the worst that would happen is that the customers of company A and B are dragged into the battle, but no one else.

So EVEN IF anarchy would lead to utter chaos, we would still be much better off then we are now where in the last 100 years we've had 2 world wars, hundreds of other clashes between nations, near genocide, and a cold war that conceivably could have resulted in humanity being wiped out entirely.

So even in an anarchic world, there's be no more WW's, no more Hiroshimas, etc. Far from Utopia, but much better than what centralized governments have gotten us.

*** Also think about this. We are living right now and always have lived in a world of international anarchy. That is, we have coercive nation States unchecked by any overall World Government. Do you advocate a WORLD GOVERNMENT?!?!?

b) The above was a hypothetical, as these police forces wouldn't clash anywhere near that much. Take the issue of honest clashes of opinion. One important facet of protection service the police could offer their customers is quiet protection. The vast majority of consumers would want protection that is efficient, quiet, and with minimal conflicts and disturbances, and all the police agencies would be aware of this consumer desire. For you to assume that police agencies would be in constant battle ignores the devastating effect this chaos would have on the business of the police agencies. Thus, on a free market, the consumers would choose police agencies that would minimize conflict through mutually agreed upon contracts, and differences of opinion would be worked out through previously mutually agreed upon private judges/arbiters. Police companies would advertise these agreements, and consumers would pay for the ones that have made these agreements.


c) note that many private businesses, with the money they would save on taxes/regulation costs and with the freedom to defend their property as they see fit instead of being forced to rely on State rules, would hire their own guards. Other businesses would do the same. Homeowners would have their own police agencies and these would often be located in close proximity to their homes as that would make them more effective, and the market would surely desire the most effective service. This system would make crime far less pervasive. How often would someone try to rob a grocery store when there are 3 armed guards in it?









Look who's being overly simplistic. Money they borrowed to fight the war was due and they didn't have it. They had two choices. Be able to levy taxes to pay debt, or default. I don't know where you're from, but it's pretty rare to owe someone lots of money and them say, 'nah, just pay me if you can whenever'.



They could have restructured the debt, and there's also many options that could have been taken that involved voluntary agreements rather than permanent centralization and taxation.

And, even IF (not saying they did) they needed a central government to pay for the war, that has nothing to do with the fact that a decentralized system is a better system. All it proves is that under certain circumstances, such as a previous need to fight against outside enemies, a centralized system can have advantages. And in a truly anarchic *world* there would never be wars against outside enemies, as I described above. (note that I never argued that this type of world has any chance of being achieved any time in the near future or even distant future, just that it would be the best system for society. In today's real world and in the US, I prefer a decentralized system where the government is restricted greatly by law and the central government's only role pretty much is to provide for the national defense. That can be achieved. )







Duh? Duh as in see, equilibrium has been reached in the cell phone market, complete with its regulations? Or duh as in, there's no difference between equilibrium and collusion?



Explain the collusion you referenced here.


That simple huh?



If I sell the same product as 10 other people at a higher price I will go out of business. If I sell the same product as 10 other people at a lower price but because of this I can't cover my costs, I will go out of business.

Posted over 1 year ago

Ass Get to Jigglin

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Joined 10/2010

one more thing. I thought you were against SOPA, even though it's trying to stop the lake (internet) from infringing on someone else's intellectual property rights (the river).



What its trying to do and the methodology with which it does it are two different things.

Posted over 1 year ago

Ass Get to Jigglin

Avatar for Ass Get to Jigglin

4273 posts
Joined 10/2010

1) And please explain to me how those Enron executives would've gone to jail without a central authority enforcing legal mandantes.



open up your mind a little bit. just because you can't picture a world without a coercive State monopoly doesn't mean it wouldn't work. See my latest post responding to Razor.



2) If a company fills a market with bogus consumer products, they will sell and they will cause irreperable damage to the health and confidence of the market. Mortgage derivatives were a bogus consumer product sold by financial institutions for years with a AAA rating that nearly caused a catastrophic, world wide collapse in the financial sector and has caused a 10 year + global economic recession and the likely collapse of the European Union at a minimum. It's not as simple as saying bogus products wont sell and those products will inevitably be replaced by good products, the interim of that process is potentially devestating.



Keynsian economics (and it's even been said that even Keynes would be rolling in his grave) and government intervention caused the 10 year global economic recession. And I never said those who committed fraud shouldn't be jailed.



3) Greed and corruption is not the most rampant in government, it's just more evident in government than in corporations because the greedy and corrupt are forced to answer to their constituents as opposed to in corporations where the greedy and corrupt are only forced to answer to their stock holders.



corporations are forced to answer to their CUSTOMERS in a free market.


4) I'm not telling you to disregard logic, I'm saying that economics treats markets and consumers as rational actors when in reality markets and consumers are inherently irrational. If you fail to take into consideration the human element in socio-economics and the need to regulate over confidence, fear, greed and corruption under the assumption a free market and rational actors will balance itself out then you're relying too much on economic theory and not enough on history to rationalize your position.



I'm not relying too much on economic theory, your relying too much on the flawed economic theories that think government can effectively regulate confidence and fear. Greed isn't a bad thing. All people pursue their separate interests in life, ALL PPL. Free markets allows them to do by while benefiting large amounts of people with quality products and services. It's a win/win.

Posted over 1 year ago

Ass Get to Jigglin

Avatar for Ass Get to Jigglin

4273 posts
Joined 10/2010

One pet peeve - saying we need efficient government doesn't make any sense. a) bureaucracies can't be efficient because of their nature. The profit incentive, competition, and informational differences between a bureaucracy and a business will always make a bureaucracy inefficient. b) The 3 branched system of checks and balances was implemented to make government INEFFICIENT. If you want efficient government, get a dictatorship.




Got more interviews to prepare for on Sunday. I'll likely let you guys have the last word til then as writing out these huge posts clearly takes a shit ton of time, but will be back then to respond again if you want to keep it going.

Posted over 1 year ago




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