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Um, just because you commit sins doesn't mean you're going to hell...big misconception.

Right ok, so acceptance of Christ is the key element. How does Christ suffering physical pain for a day or so somehow make up for the sins of billions of people throughout thousands of years? If it was his death. wasn't he gonna die anyway?

How can horrific crimes forced on children be 'forgiven' because someone else gets beaten up and crucified? How can it at all? If you do a crime, is it moral or ethical in any way for you to even allow someone else to take the punishment for you?

I just killed this guy and stole a bunch of money that wasn't mine. It's ok! Just beat up and kill that other totally innocent guy, then I can be forgiven...What!?

This kind of morality and behavior we wouldn't even expect from an underdeveloped child, let alone the god of the bloody universe.

I can believe that Jesus was a better Buddhist than Buddha.

But this talk about Christ - do most Christians even know what the word means and where it comes from? (answer: no) and yet people ramble on and on about Christ this and Christ that. Christ is a title, not a name - and there is yet another significant flaw I found with the current churches out there

Time and space started at the big bang. It's weird to think of a 'before.'

But that is still your belief system, theory, hypothesis. You have no way to prove this.
You are trying to be "rational" by using "science" as your reference, but the "Big Bang" is still a theory (belief).

I am not saying it is wrong. Just pointing out that everyone has a "belief system".

I agree that it is the mind-boggling 'before' the start....that has everyone either scratching their heads or satisfied with JUST believing (faith in their Science or a God).

It is a ramble, and I think I got lost in this whole process of the difference between relationship and religion. And for that, I again apologize.

I understand the difference. I've been there.

There are no good logical reasons to believe. That's fine, because guess what, you don't need them in order to believe. It's not like you have a problem choosing whether you should believe in god or not, and you start exploring the evidence, and you come to the conclusion that 'yes! I should believe in god'. That's not how it works, at least not for me. However, you can only come to the conclusion that 'no, there is no good reason to believe in god, we don't need god to make sense of life'. That's what happens when you weigh everything with the rational mind, there is no room for god.
Someone said that the more we know the more we realize that the universe is about mathematics. I don't think that's true at all. I'm an astronomer, and I believe in god, and I value mathematics a lot, because it's an adequate tool to describe the physical. But there is more than the physical world, I believe!

Cheers everyone!!!!

I can believe that Jesus was a better Buddhist than Buddha.

But this talk about Christ - do most Christians even know what the word means and where it comes from? (answer: no) and yet people ramble on and on about Christ this and Christ that. Christ is a title, not a name - and there is yet another significant flaw I found with the current churches out there

Christ = healer

I want everyone to know that I really am curious about this topic. I eat this stuff up like it were dunkin donuts or something... do not mistake my comments for anything other than curiosity. I've spent a lot of time thinking things through, am currently in a state of knowing that I don't know, but am still voracious.

I can believe that Jesus was a better Buddhist than Buddha.

But this talk about Christ - do most Christians even know what the word means and where it comes from? (answer: no) and yet people ramble on and on about Christ this and Christ that. Christ is a title, not a name - and there is yet another significant flaw I found with the current churches out there

You are maybe half right. You're missing the point. From our view he is the one and only Christ so the name fits. Get it? Would you prefer we say Yahweh, or Yahweh Jehovah-Jireh? How about Joshua?
Christ is just the easiest to refer to for most people. It is these petty things and HUGE assumptions once again that athiest know more than believers that just make me not want to take part in this type of thing. If a Christian says God he means his God as he believes that is the only one there is. It isnt some kind of trick.

Even though we have to remember that originally Christ was added to Jesus of Nazareth as a title to mean Jesus the Messiah or healer, etc.

Christ = healer

To a Christian he is the only light, truth and healing source. So when they say Christ they mean the son of God born to Mary.

@Sneakers

But that is still your belief system, theory, hypothesis. You have no way to prove this.
You are trying to be "rational" by using "science" as your reference, but the "Big Bang" is still a theory (belief).

Don't be ridiculous. Is the theory of gravity a belief? No, it's a fact. Just like evolution, the atom and the big bang. Facts. And provable ones.

Scientific theories differ from metaphysical or philosophical ones in that they use inductive rather than deductive reasoning. This means they are empirical, testable and observable.

Right ok, so acceptance of Christ is the key element. How does Christ suffering physical pain for a day or so somehow make up for the sins of billions of people throughout thousands of years? If it was his death. wasn't he gonna die anyway?

How can horrific crimes forced on children be 'forgiven' because someone else gets beaten up and crucified? How can it at all? If you do a crime, is it moral or ethical in any way for you to even allow someone else to take the punishment for you?

I just killed this guy and stole a bunch of money that wasn't mine. It's ok! Just beat up and kill that other totally innocent guy, then I can be forgiven...What!?

This kind of morality and behavior we wouldn't even expect from an underdeveloped child, let alone the god of the bloody universe.

Accepting Jesus is not the goal. Believing in him with everything you are and trying to be like him with everything you are is the goal. If you are doing that then you will not try to sin. You will end up sinning one some level. As all man is incapable of not sinning on some level.
You can be forgiven for anything you did as Jesus died for you sins. All one has to do is ask for it, ask to be born again, and then make the Bread(Jesus Christ) his main source. If a man says I admit to my sins and I believe in Christ and then says F'it I don't care about what I do he will still go to hell. If a man spent his whole life doing bad and sees the light at the end of his days and takes the Lord into his heart he can go to heaven. Get it?

@mastertex

Accepting Jesus is not the goal. Believing in him with everything you are and trying to be like him with everything you are is the goal. If you are doing that then you will not try to sin. You will end up sinning one some level. As all man is incapable of not sinning on some level.
You can be forgiven for anything you did as Jesus died for you sins. All one has to do is ask for it, ask to be born again, and then make the Bread(Jesus Christ) his main source. If a man says I admit to my sins and I believe in Christ and then says F'it I don't care about what I do he will still go to hell. If a man spent his whole life doing bad and sees the light at the end of his days and takes the Lord into his heart he can go to heaven. Get it?

Rephrasing a doctrine I am already well aware of doesn't answer the gaping problems I brought up.

@Sneakers
the limits of current scientific knowledge will always be where religion starts as it explains everything and nothing at the same time. but this is not a rational argument for god.
........

I think I have said it simple enough, so I am not sure where anyone would believe I make any "argument for a god" or against. I said that if I had to be "labeled", I am closest to being "agnostic".
I guess that is my best attempt to be neutral on the subject.

IMO, every belief system regarding the beginning of time, has to lean on faith, belief in something someone said, theories, and/or a "higher being".

NOTE: I am always amazed by the programs on TV that bring dinosaurs to life (cool animations). Quite often in the explanations, it seems that the scientist was right there -- and knows exactly how things happened between the different creatures. Interesting stuff IMO, but still just theories and ideas.....and I cannot believe it is all true (scientifically or historically speaking). BUT I bet that little kids start forming their "belief systems" by what the given scientist says happened.



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@mastertex


Rephrasing a doctrine I am already well aware of doesn't answer the gaping problems I brought up.

Would anything? The only way some people would believe is if he came down from heaven and did some parlor tricks. The Bible tells of a time (im my best guess not to far) when a man will use this very tactic to get great power over people. This is why it is a poor way to judge the whole thing.