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Chazb0t

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1816 posts
Joined 01/2009

Here is a study on paleolithic diet:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185?dopt=Abstract

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v63/n8/full/ejcn20094a.html

“The usual diet had a calculated K/Na intake ratio of 0.6plusminus0.3 and averaged 18% of calories from protein, 44% from carbohydrates and 38% from fats. An analyzed paleolithic diet composite had a K/Na intake ratio of 4.3 (P<0.0001) and contained 30% of calories from proteins, 32% from fat (mainly unsaturated) and 38% from carbohydrates.”

Posted about 2 years ago

Chazb0t

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1816 posts
Joined 01/2009

It's difficult to say that diet played absolutely no part in either the brain development/chemistry or in the life span.



Our brains have been shrinking, they are 10% smaller(the size of a tennis ball) than our caveman ancestors. The introduction of grains into our diet is one possible explanation for this.

I think Oxford university did a study claiming low levels of vitamin B12 causes loss of brain mass/size. Meat/seafood is the only source of B12 I believe, meaning vegetarians/vegans have to supplement.

So grains becoming a staple of our diet due to it being a cheap/easy calorie source and less meat consumption most likely has played a role in this if is not the actual cause in itself.

Posted about 2 years ago

nawhead

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2484 posts
Joined 10/2009

"If you read any medical school biochemistry textbook, you’ll find a section devoted to what happens metabolically during starvation. If you read these sections with a knowing eye, you’ll realize that everything discussed as happening during starvation happens during carbohydrate restriction as well. There have been a few papers published recently showing the same thing: the metabolism of carb restriction = the metabolism of starvation. I would maintain, however, based on my study of the Paleolithic diet, that starvation and carb restriction are simply the polar ends of a continuum, and that carb restriction was the norm for most of our existence as upright walking beings on this planet, making the metabolism of what biochemistry textbook authors call starvation the ‘normal’ metabolism."
(http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/)

This is a little more interesting. He's suggesting that today, starvation is defined as lack of carbohydrates, and by saying carb restriction and starvation are in fact polar opposites that eating carbohydrates is somewhere between starvation and normal metabolism. At least as near as I can decipher the last sentence. I agree that starvation should not be defined as lacking carbs, but the last sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. If the current description of what happens metabolically during starvation is not correct, then what does happen during properly defined starvation?


that's a good point. i didn't read that passage all that clearly before. guess that's what happens when you're just looking for confirmations. Frown

i think it's more like
abnormal --- normal --- abnormal
starvation --- ketosis --- elevated insulin, unusable fat stores

i think that makes more sense with respect to how fat is utilized by the body.

it's abnormal to waste away obviously. but it's abnormal also for your belly to be growling when you have a beer gut. ketosis is more like a steady state where you're using the fat stores in your body like rechargeable batteries and not really feeling hunger. so it would be closer to starvation than not. but it's much better than your body's hormones going haywire into uncontrolled obesity and type 2 diabetes.

It seems like much of the justification for the paleo diet is mankind having gotten it right way back in prehistory. While this may be true, human beings were a lot dumber and shorter lived back then. And it's difficult to say that diet played absolutely no part in either the brain development/chemistry or in the life span. Is there any proof that paleo man was living the optimal way, so that we should return to his habits?


the argument about lifespans isn't relevant due to the drastic difference in environment and technology. i made the same argument also when i first saw this thread.

"Life expectancy increases track more closely with economic prosperity and sanitary engineering than with strictly medical advances. Notable achievements in the past century--the decreased incidences of epidemic infections, dental caries, and stomach cancer--are owed to virologists, dentists, and (probably) refrigeration more than to physicians [and i would add dietitians]."
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11817903)

as far as if the paleo diet is better than other known diets? it is.

the Atkins diet (not quite paleo, but close enough), in a year long study, showed most improvement in weight loss and keeping weight off. in fact, favorable metabolic changes in all categories including better numbers in blood pressure, higher (good) HDL-Cholesterol and lower (bad) LDL-Cholesterol, triglycerides, insulin, and glucose.
Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN Diets for Change in Weight and Related Risk Factors Among Overweight Premenopausal Women
The A TO Z Weight Loss Study: A Randomized Trial,
Christopher D. Gardner, PhD, JAMA 2007


Video: The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) by Christopher Gardner for the Stanford School of Medicine

and this is just a theory, and i already linked this before, but here it is again:

"Meat eating made us human. The anthropological evidence strongly supports the idea that the addition of increasingly larger amounts of meat in the diet of our predecessors was essential in the evolution of the large human brain. Our large brains came at the metabolic expense of our guts, which shrank as our brains grew."
(http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-library/are-we-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-part-ii/)

Posted about 2 years ago

nawhead

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2484 posts
Joined 10/2009

Here is a study on paleolithic diet:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185?dopt=Abstract


this UCSF study shows good results in the short-term and explains why people start "feeling" better right away, so it's just not just placebo i experienced! Grin

still, that study only had 9 people, and it was only for a month. the Stanford A to Z study tracked 300 women over a year. but in either case, atkins/paleo/low carb/high fat wins!

Posted about 2 years ago

Chazb0t

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1816 posts
Joined 01/2009

this UCSF study shows good results in the short-term and explains why people start "feeling" better right away, so it's just not just placebo i experienced! Grin

still, that study only had 9 people, and it was only for a month. the Stanford A to Z study tracked 300 women over a year. but in either case, atkins/paleo/low carb/high fat wins!



Yea sample size sucks and no control group

Posted about 2 years ago

StnBuddha70

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700 posts
Joined 05/2008

It's noise, but I went from 5'10' 170, to 210' with kettlebells and a lot of meat. By the way, I went to the Doctor for the first time since the 80s' and my BP was 120/70 while I tipped the scale at 210.

Shey-Do-Bey

Posted about 2 years ago

Sneakers

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2021 posts
Joined 09/2009

Everything in the book is here, you don't even need to buy it:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com//welcome-to-marks-daily-apple/

Daily updates too with research papers, new findings, recipes, exercises, success stories, etc...

(All free)


Thanks!

Posted about 2 years ago

Steppin Razor

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Section 9
2237 posts
Joined 12/2009

the argument about lifespans isn't relevant due to the drastic difference in environment and technology. i made the same argument also when i first saw this thread.


Correlation does not equal causation. The fact that life span changed with environment and technology does not mean those caused the life span change. Drowning deaths increase when ice cream consumption increases, but not because ice cream makes you drown.

I'd say the impact that these factors (including diet) had on life span is not measurable.

Posted about 2 years ago

Chazb0t

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1816 posts
Joined 01/2009

Correlation does not equal causation. The fact that life span changed with environment and technology does not mean those caused the life span change. Drowning deaths increase when ice cream consumption increases, but not because ice cream makes you drown.



Don't swim after you eat... LDO Poke Tongue

Posted about 2 years ago

Peesocake

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948 posts
Joined 02/2007

Although I'm sure there is truth in in that paleodiet stuff, it seems way to restrictive to me.

Isn't the current diabetes explosion due to the fact that sugar is processed in just about every food people eat, and not due to people eating rice or pasta or potatoes? Wouldn't there have been a diabetes epidemic before if that were the case? Like precisely 10000 years ago?
So if you just cut out on the brownies, doughnuts, pies, soda and whatnot, and just eat your potatoes with veggies and a lasagna once in while, and mix in your rice dish here and there, drink water, and exercise, you should be alright.

Isn't it all just a question of balance?

Of course, if one is overweight or obese, cutting out on carbs in general seems to be the way to go, but if one is just chubby, it's probably not because one ate a mango too many.

Or is this terribly off?

Posted about 2 years ago

Steppin Razor

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Section 9
2237 posts
Joined 12/2009

Based on the stats Chazbot posted at the top of this page, the Paleo diet seems to reduce carb intake by only 6%. That seems pretty reasonable.




Don't swim after you eat... LDO Poke Tongue


or, people eat ice cream during swimming season.

Posted about 2 years ago

Chazb0t

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1816 posts
Joined 01/2009

Based on the stats Chazbot posted at the top of this page, the Paleo diet seems to reduce carb intake by only 6%. That seems pretty reasonable.



I think mainly the point of these diets is to get your carbs from fruits/veggies, not from rice, bread, or pasta. So you don't even really have to reduce carbs, although obv they are going to decrease just from removing grains from your diet.

Posted about 2 years ago

Steppin Razor

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Section 9
2237 posts
Joined 12/2009

nawhead

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2484 posts
Joined 10/2009

Correlation does not equal causation. The fact that life span changed with environment and technology does not mean those caused the life span change. Drowning deaths increase when ice cream consumption increases, but not because ice cream makes you drown.

I'd say the impact that these factors (including diet) had on life span is not measurable.


exactly. there are so many confounding factors that we can't identify any one factor as the cause, diet included. thus the point is irrelevant.

the only things we know with any certainty come from controlled trials. and one was given. there's really no counter-argument against "i like bread," however... i also like getting blind drunk and not having to worry about tomorrow. but it doesn't make for a good argument in favor of it.

Posted about 2 years ago

nawhead

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2484 posts
Joined 10/2009

Peesocake

Isn't the current diabetes explosion due to the fact that sugar is processed in just about every food people eat, and not due to people eating rice or pasta or potatoes? Wouldn't there have been a diabetes epidemic before if that were the case? Like precisely 10000 years ago?


there needs to be more trials done with HFCS/sugar compared to all carbs, and we don't know for sure. Is Sugar Toxic?" By GARY TAUBES in The New York Times April 13, 2011

but we know with some certainty that carbs are the big factor now. whether it's all carbs, or processed carbs, or just sugar, or HFCS is the next step. but in order to get to that point, we still have to make the jump that low carb is the better way to go. we're still far from that right now with all the government guidelines still pushing high carb diets, and the belief systems that people have built over a lifetime because of that.

still, there's historical evidence that says it's not the sugar at all, but the flour alone.

"According to the New York Times, Hatshepsut’s mummy is that of an obese, diabetic 50 year old woman with bad teeth. All the conditions that nutritionists today would have us believe would be prevented by Hatshepsut’s diet. It certainly didn’t work for her. And she is not a special case – most Egyptian mummies show the same disorders, especially the bad teeth. The skeletal remains of Paleolithic man, who consumed a meat-based diet, showed strong, perfect teeth. Bad teeth are the hallmark of carbohydrate consumption."
(http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/obesity/obesity-in-ancient-egypt/)

Posted about 2 years ago




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