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[ok, i know i'm just spamming this thread now, so my apologies.]

for Steppin Razor and anybody else still reading this thread, here's a great lecture by Gary Taubes, author of Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why We Get Fat at Dartmouth Medical School from 2009 (video is in 7 parts, link is to playlist that will play them in order).

the above talk may be better for some people since Tom Naughton is an amateur comedian, and he probably comes across as abrasive and smug when he's just trying to be (unsuccessfully) funny in a serious setting.

Hi all,

Very interesting thread. And kind of confusing because of all the info.
I have a few questions and hope some of you knowledgeable people can say something about it:

First, I do 2hour boxing workouts 3 times a week. I do them seriously meaning I give it all I got. However, since I have very little fat (none?), I feel I need to load up before the workout. So what I do is I make a fruit juice consisting of 3 oranges,grapes,and ginger, and sometimes I throw in whatever fruit needs to be consumed. I feel I load up with sugar, and then expend it. After the workout I'm super hungry. And thirsty.
Now, after reading this thread, I'm worried about the fruitjuice thing. However, if I didn't do it, I feel I'd lose weight quickly (35yrs-184cm-77kg, so no need).

Also, I have concerns about the meat intake: it doesn't seem right to me to ingest large quantities of meat that comes from animals that aren't healthy, the whole bioindustry thing. Apart from the fact that it's sad and respectless towards animals, it's also the idea that those animals (especially chicken, pigs) aren't healthy, and suffer. So eating an animal that's not healthy (because of what they are fed, lack of exercise, extreme stress) is not going to be bad for me on the long term, and it wouldn't surprise me that the main cause of disease is not only what we eat, but the quality of our food (especially meat, and the excess of dairy products coming from "overmilked" cows).

I realize there are healthy variants of meat, but they do get very expensive (all the green bio meats). And also I don't completely trust that either, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years it was all a marketing trick anyway, and that these healthy and expensive meat products are not so healthy after all).

So basically, I'd rather eat no meat, than bad quality meat (and most meat is), but then, where do I get enough proteins from?

Cheers guys

Hi all,

Very interesting thread. And kind of confusing because of all the info.
I have a few questions and hope some of you knowledgeable people can say something about it:

First, I do 2hour boxing workouts 3 times a week. I do them seriously meaning I give it all I got. However, since I have very little fat (none?), I feel I need to load up before the workout. So what I do is I make a fruit juice consisting of 3 oranges,grapes,and ginger, and sometimes I throw in whatever fruit needs to be consumed. I feel I load up with sugar, and then expend it. After the workout I'm super hungry. And thirsty.
Now, after reading this thread, I'm worried about the fruitjuice thing. However, if I didn't do it, I feel I'd lose weight quickly (35yrs-184cm-77kg, so no need).

Also, I have concerns about the meat intake: it doesn't seem right to me to ingest large quantities of meat that comes from animals that aren't healthy, the whole bioindustry thing. Apart from the fact that it's sad and respectless towards animals, it's also the idea that those animals (especially chicken, pigs) aren't healthy, and suffer. So eating an animal that's not healthy (because of what they are fed, lack of exercise, extreme stress) is not going to be bad for me on the long term, and it wouldn't surprise me that the main cause of disease is not only what we eat, but the quality of our food (especially meat, and the excess of dairy products coming from "overmilked" cows).

I realize there are healthy variants of meat, but they do get very expensive (all the green bio meats). And also I don't completely trust that either, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years it was all a marketing trick anyway, and that these healthy and expensive meat products are not so healthy after all).

So basically, I'd rather eat no meat, than bad quality meat (and most meat is), but then, where do I get enough proteins from?

Cheers guys

Sounds like you are in good shape and healthy so continue what you are doing imo

Could you switch from fruit shakes to veg and whey protein shakes?

Regarding meat, just go to a high quality butchers, the cost is only slightly more but the quality is assured, buy in bulk and freeze the meat also makes the price cheaper.

Also eat more fish as this is typically wild and then simply caught in the ocean a day before you purchase it - fish is also cheaper, cleaner and healthier in general.

if you're worried you aren't getting enough calories, eat fat. nuts, seeds, almond butter, avocado, coconut, etc.

which oils are best to cook with and which oils should i absolutely avoid?

@Peesocake

First, I do 2hour boxing workouts 3 times a week. I do them seriously meaning I give it all I got. However, since I have very little fat (none?), I feel I need to load up before the workout. So what I do is I make a fruit juice consisting of 3 oranges,grapes,and ginger, and sometimes I throw in whatever fruit needs to be consumed. I feel I load up with sugar, and then expend it. After the workout I'm super hungry. And thirsty.
Now, after reading this thread, I'm worried about the fruitjuice thing. However, if I didn't do it, I feel I'd lose weight quickly (35yrs-184cm-77kg, so no need).

i used to feel like ass if i didn't drink or eat some carbs before a workout (no fat here also). but that's because i'd trained my muscles to burn sugar exclusively. since going paleo/carb-restricted, my muscles burn whatever's available. unless you're anorexic, you have plenty of fat to get through a 2 hour workout, and that fat gets padded back for the next workout, it's a constant cycle.

yesterday, i matched my best time in the 2 mile after a 14 hour fast. doing stuff like this once you're not dependent on sugar is not a big deal. you don't have constant hunger (read: sugar) pangs anymore. your muscles don't cry like a sissy cause they haven't had their juicebox.

i might get scolded again for being pseudoscientific by n0whereman but, think of yourself as a lion. you wake up in the savannah and you have to eat. you don't get no powerbar or fruit smoothie to get you going. but by zeus, you will run down and rip apart that antelope regardless. this strength and power is within your cell walls if only you will tap it.

still, if you engage in endurance boxing (or endurance sports of any sort), you may need extra carbs. i'm sure it's fine as long as you cut out the sugar the rest of the time when not training or competing.

and why worry about weight? just train. if you need to cut weight for a fight, cut all the carbs from your diet the last few weeks.

I realize there are healthy variants of meat, but they do get very expensive (all the green bio meats). And also I don't completely trust that either, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years it was all a marketing trick anyway, and that these healthy and expensive meat products are not so healthy after all).

we either have to make some compromise or actually move to the jungle and live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. and if we distrust organic meat, might as well distrust organic veggies and fruits, and tap water, and air, and everything in between. congrats, now we're a nihilist and life is meaningless.

even if i thought differently in my youth, the vast majority of people (even government workers) are like me. they make mistakes and believe in stupid things from time to time, but we're social creatures by nature and ultimately want the best for ourselves and others.

don't know how much of this applies to outside the U.S., but read the Conscientious Omnivore series on the Whole9 site. it gives you an idea of what to look for to get "happy" meat.

which oils are best to cook with and which oils should i absolutely avoid?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/healthy-oils/

olive and coconut are the go to's.

avoid all the other "healthy" vegetable oils.

but i'll also add butter or lard to the good list. better yet, use olive oil and butter and lard and coconut AT THE SAME TIME, then throw on some bacon. then drizzle it with some walnut oil. "where's your God now?!!!"

i might get scolded again for being pseudoscientific by n0whereman but, think of yourself as a lion. you wake up in the savannah and you have to eat. you don't get no powerbar or fruit smoothie to get you going. but by zeus, you will run down and rip apart that antelope regardless. this strength and power is within your cell walls if only you will tap it.

Yup, the whole "eat before you exercise to have energy" thing seems really backwards. We've always expended large amounts of energy when hungry, and had little reason to do so after eating - it's kind of how we're designed imo.

Also Peesocake, you do have fat, and energy wise a lot of it (still kind of noobish at this but also muscles provide energy through amino acids which liver converts to glucose). And you seem to be really avoiding the meat thing "So basically, I'd rather eat no meat, than bad quality meat (and most meat is)" - like are you seriously considering option 3? Finding a healthy source of meat that may cost a little more but will be superior to no meat, which is probably superior to dodgy meat. Kind of just seems like you've made your mind up about the meat thing and are looking for any shred of argument to support the position (I was like this for longest time, so kind of understand where you're coming from).

But ya "carbo loading" before workouts seems pretty bad in terms of screwing up hormone balances/insulin sensitivity etc. You have everything you need to perform inside you already. (But like I said I'm still a little new to all of this so take that fwiw). Oh also check out New Evolution Diet by Art De Vany imo, smart dude who gives an interesting perspective on all of this. And lives it too (73 years old, 200lb <8% body fat, off the chart testosterone, works out 90 minutes/week)

Thanks for the answers guys,

I'm going to reconsider the fruitjuice thing before working out. It's a shame though cause that stuff is nice.
Already bought a kilo of nuts today, walnuts, almonds, cashew, and pistachio. And peanuts. (the ones in the shell).
As for meat, I do eat meat, although not as much as I used to. I don't eat pork anymore. Chicken only once in a while because the green chicken is really superexpensive (like almost 3 times the price of regular chicken breast), and the regular chicken is really bad: I mean, it actually stinks when you fry it, and it stinks in the supermarket as well. So I basically eat the expensive beef, and green minced beef. Eating meat everyday is too expensive though. Definitely started eating more fish.

Thanks for the suggestions!

What about eggs, Peesocake?

Thanks for the answers guys,

I'm going to reconsider the fruitjuice thing before working out. It's a shame though cause that stuff is nice.
Already bought a kilo of nuts today, walnuts, almonds, cashew, and pistachio. And peanuts. (the ones in the shell).
As for meat, I do eat meat, although not as much as I used to. I don't eat pork anymore. Chicken only once in a while because the green chicken is really superexpensive (like almost 3 times the price of regular chicken breast), and the regular chicken is really bad: I mean, it actually stinks when you fry it, and it stinks in the supermarket as well. So I basically eat the expensive beef, and green minced beef. Eating meat everyday is too expensive though. Definitely started eating more fish.

Thanks for the suggestions!

If you want to keep the fruit juice just move it to directly after your workout.

Here's a good article explaining why Maximizing Nutrient Partitioning: Get Adrenalized the insulin spike post workout is actually pretty good for you.

Edit: I don't know why T-nation insists upon making their site so 'not quite heterosexual' and borderline mantastic.

Already bought a kilo of nuts today, walnuts, almonds, cashew, and pistachio. And peanuts. (the ones in the shell).

There seems to be a lot paleo people saying cashews/peanuts aren't that great. Apparently they're a legume, not a nut - they have quite high levels of lectin and can grow a certain mold on them very easily.

Dr. Michael R. Eades asks "Are We Meat Eaters or Vegetarians?"

or in tabloid-ese... "Raise Your IQ and Get 6 Pack Abs on a T-Bone Diet!!!"

this thread is awesome - watched that Fat Head movie nawhead posted earlier and that was really eye opening, thanks!

i'll eat some steak and eggs to that! it's like we're coming out of the McCarthy era of the diet world. pretty exciting times! after you get mad as hell of course.