General Discussion Poker Forums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

1. Unconscious incompetence
The individual neither understands nor knows how to do something, nor recognizes the deficit, nor has a desire to address it.

2. Conscious incompetence
Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, without yet addressing it.

3. Conscious competence
The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires a great deal of consciousness or concentration.

4. Unconscious competence
The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it becomes "second nature" and can be performed easily (often without concentrating too deeply). He or she may or may not be able teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.

This has been discussed over at 2p2 in the past but I haven't really seen a thread on it here at DC. I'm not going to make a long write-up about how it relates to poker, other than to try and ask you guys to think about what stage you fit into with your development, and how you can work towards "unconscious competence". Hopefully it should generate some discussion.

Considering that I mainly coach these days, I would say my knowledge when it comes to micros actually goes beyond the stage of unconscious competence. They discuss it a bit in that Wiki article, but some psychologists think there should be a 5th level that reflects conscious ability to teach the skills with which we are unconcsiously competent. Where do you guys fall in the spectrum?

This is a brilliant concept and has definitely helped me with my poker development. I recommend reading and understanding the concept here, then apply it to your poker game next time you self-review (and every time thereafter).

I've seen versions of this in school (I took an Education degree in university)

I think that a really strong poker player flips between 3 and 4 in a regular basis. just being in 4 makes it seem like autopilot and that can cause us to take rote lines without much consideration for opponent tendencies, table make up, whatever.

A strong player should have 4 down and have it be second nature to do whatever in poker, but constantly be fighting to keep a foothold in 3 so that lines and plays can be constantly reevaluated.

Jared Tendler Videos on stox/cardrunners are all about this for anyone who has access but hasn't watched them

Hmm - something seems to be missing. I can't word it right now. Let me think a little about it.

Edit: Maybe 4) contains more than I first thought.

4. translates into poker kind a like the more you autopilot the more effective you are, and thus autopiloting is good but then again the problem starts in a situation where people misuse word autopilot.

What stage we are in also depends on what stakes level we are playing, what the situation is in the hand, and our strategy for our hand. Like maybe you don't know much about check-raise bluffing flops enough, like me, or maybe you know a lot about cbetting the flop in position. If you want to think on general terms, I am at stage 3 at the micro stakes. Interesting stuff! Good luck, Yojimgari

insn´t our "level" allways dependent on who we play against?

i can´t see (unless you are playing only the same 10 opponents every day) how you can use this concept in poker given that against villain A you might be level 4 and be right but then vs villain B (take krantz playing a friends account^^)which you never played before you think youre 3-4, but in reality youre 1...so how usefull is this?

insn´t our "level" allways dependent on who we play against?

i can´t see (unless you are playing only the same 10 opponents every day) how you can use this concept in poker given that against villain A you might be level 4 and be right but then vs villain B (take krantz playing a friends account^^)which you never played before you think youre 3-4, but in reality youre 1...so how usefull is this?

Just because you're playing someone better than you doesn't mean you suddenly unlearn all of your poker education.

I'd say I'm probably in the 2nd and 3rd stage. I'm aware of my incompetence in some areas but instead I kinda focus on the things I know well and what makes me money in the micros.

Imo it's a continuous ladder rather than one from the beginning to the end. You might be unconsciously competent at what you think is the highest level in poker, but there's always more. I feel like I've been going through these steps multiple times, where after step 4 you realize there's more to the game than you thought before, kinda making step 4 the new step 1, and you start over at 2.

there is obviously a problem with stage 4 and poker when it comes down to having leaks.
You have to go back to stage 3, or maybe even 2 to actually plug them.

imagine an inchworm.. slowly making its way a timeline from newbie to advanced player.. that's how your poker learning goes. Peaks and valleys. Check out the Jared Tendler vids.. the "playing your A-Game series"

there is obviously a problem with stage 4 and poker when it comes down to having leaks.
You have to go back to stage 3, or maybe even 2 to actually plug them.

Leaks are step 1, when you move to step 2 you begin the process of plugging them.

Well. No.
because @ poker you can never be sure how competend you really are or just being lucky while having a bunch of leaks