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i insta misclicked folded this when i meant to call his medium sized river bet.

was it actually good i folded? bad?

Party Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $55.20
BTN: $123.65
SB: $90.85
BB: $198.45
UTG: $104.60
Hero (MP): $53.55

Pre Flop: Hero is MP with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to $3.50, CO calls $3.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($7.00) K T K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($7.00) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $6.00, CO raises to $12, Hero calls $6

River: ($31.00) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $20.00, Hero folds

Final Pot: $31.00
CO wins $30.90
(Rake: $0.10)

Do you have any stats or reads on villain? The way he played it, it really looks like a bad player slowplaying a K or he made a boat on the turn with 88. I just can't see him playing anything else like that.

i think there's a good chance you saved yourself $20.

Do you have any stats or reads on villain? The way he played it, it really looks like a bad player slowplaying a K or he made a boat on the turn with 88. I just can't see him playing anything else like that.

he was very fishy passive, so like canis said, i think i saved myself money.

Anyone make the case for folding the turn here?

I think the better question is...why didn't you bet the flop?

But yeah, I think the misclick saved you.

I think the better question is...why didn't you bet the flop?

But yeah, I think the misclick saved you.

hmmm i usually never bet that board. either i'm way ahead or way behind except against QJ, the only hand i'm betting to "protect" (if he does have that, i have 2 of his outs).

i'm checking for pot control and turn and river value from pairs.

i don't think i could get any value from a bet and will get punished without real information if i'm way behind. looks like win a small pot, lose a big one. with AA i'm pretty safe if i'm ahead on the flop.

Do you have any stats or reads on villain? The way he played it, it really looks like a bad player slowplaying a K or he made a boat on the turn with 88. I just can't see him playing anything else like that.

he was very fishy passive, so like canis said, i think i saved myself money.

I think you were beat here too. But look at the way you describe the villain - if he's passive, why would you not bet the flop?

I think the better question is...why didn't you bet the flop?

But yeah, I think the misclick saved you.

hmmm i usually never bet that board. either i'm way ahead or way behind except against QJ, the only hand i'm betting to "protect" (if he does have that, i have 2 of his outs).

i'm checking for pot control and turn and river value from pairs.

i don't think i could get any value from a bet and will get punished without real information if i'm way behind. looks like win a small pot, lose a big one. with AA i'm pretty safe if i'm ahead on the flop.

This is the wrong way to think regarding this type of opponent. Bet until he shows aggression or signs that you're beat. You should be able to stack passive fish on this kind of board when they've got stubborn pocket pairs that don't believe you.

I don't know what you mean by "punished without real information," either. If he raises anywhere, he'll typically have you beat, so the only way you'll get punished is if you don't listen to the information provided to you by your read (he is fishy and passive). If he doesn't raise, you're punishing him with the strength of your hand.

This is the wrong way to think regarding this type of opponent. Bet until he shows aggression or signs that you're beat. You should be able to stack passive fish on this kind of board when they've got stubborn pocket pairs that don't believe you.

I don't know what you mean by "punished without real information," either. If he raises anywhere, he'll typically have you beat, so the only way you'll get punished is if you don't listen to the information provided to you by your read (he is fishy and passive). If he doesn't raise, you're punishing him with the strength of your hand.

i just thought that if i bet flop and he calls, i don't have any info on him. he would call with all pairs and the king and the QJ and then on the turn i would be punished b/c any bet i make there will commit me. if he has a king he'll continue and if not he'll fold on the turn giving me 1 street of value instead of 2 if i checked the flop.

after this hand i've been using the bet/bet/bet line vs passive fish (with top pair) and it's been working very well. i posted the same advice to another thread about that line when he mentioned the player with passive.

i just thought that if i bet flop and he calls, i don't have any info on him. he would call with all pairs and the king and the QJ

ah, but don't you see? THERE's your information!

i just thought that if i bet flop and he calls, i don't have any info on him. he would call with all pairs and the king and the QJ

ah, but don't you see? THERE's your information!

but it's still not the information on knowing if he has the pair/queen OR the king. UNLESS, wait a second... are you saying that it doesn't matter which he has. all the info i need to know is that he has a peice of it and if he does i should bet/bet/bet. on the chance that he has kings i stack off, but most of the time he stacks off to me? making this more EV than any other play?

am i getting it now? bet/bet/bet is the best line vs his type b/c you'll get value paid so often that it overrides the small number of times when he has something better or hits something better later?

i just thought that if i bet flop and he calls, i don't have any info on him. he would call with all pairs and the king and the QJ

ah, but don't you see? THERE's your information!

but it's still not the information on knowing if he has the pair/queen OR the king. UNLESS, wait a second... are you saying that it doesn't matter which he has. all the info i need to know is that he has a peice of it and if he does i should bet/bet/bet. on the chance that he has kings i stack off, but most of the time he stacks off to me? making this more EV than any other play?

am i getting it now? bet/bet/bet is the best line vs his type b/c you'll get value paid so often that it overrides the small number of times when he has something better or hits something better later?

BOOYAH




Here's a similar example where I river trips against an opponent that could have a wide range of hands on the river, including many that beat me. I trusted my gut that against this typical horrible 100NL player, my hand would be good enough to shove because he is bad enough to call with worse.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

MP: $100.00
CO: $49.90
Hero (BTN): $98.50
SB: $104.00
BB: $152.05
UTG: $94.50

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with Q J
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Hero raises to $5.50, 2 folds, UTG calls $4.50, CO calls $4.50

Flop: ($18.00) J 3 T (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($18.00) 4 (3 players)
UTG bets $9, CO folds, Hero calls $9

River: ($36.00) J (2 players)
UTG bets $22, Hero raises to $84 all in, UTG calls $58 all in

Final Pot: $196.00
Hero shows Qh Jh (three of a kind, Jacks)
UTG mucks Kc Kd
Hero wins $193.00
(Rake: $3.00)


This spot isn't really that close against this player in my opinion (maybe would be against tighter players) but I just wanted to give you an idea of just how bad a lot of these loose-passive fish really play. I see lots of TAGs just calling with a hand like QJ or even KJ here because they are scared of valuetowning themselves, but they are missing tons of value. Against these guys, you don't have to worry about what worse hands are calling; just rest assured that they are.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

MP: $169.80
Hero (CO): $172.45
BTN: $96.90
SB: $359.35
BB: $172.70
UTG: $126.35

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J T
1 fold, MP calls $1, Hero raises to $4.50, 3 folds, MP calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50) 5 7 9 (2 players)
MP bets $7, Hero calls $7

Turn: ($24.50) 8 (2 players)
MP bets $17, Hero raises to $62, MP calls $45

River: ($148.50) 7 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $98.95 all in, MP calls $96.30 all in

Final Pot: $341.10
MP shows 5d 5c (a full house, Fives full of Sevens)
Hero shows Jd Tc (a straight, Jack high)
MP wins $338.10
(Rake: $3.00)



This hand is probably a better example of a clear valueshove when there is a good chance I'm beat. Still, what am I supposed to do, not shove the nut straight when the fish checks? Sometimes you just gotta get stacked.

well, joe, you're getting there. but still a ways away.

you're playing against a weighted range of hands. not just a hand that beats you or a hand that doesn't beat you. how do you weight the dispersion of possible hands? that depends on the player type and your reads and the information you gather street by street.

so in this hand, we know he's passive, right? a passive player by nature only shows aggression when they've got a big hand. so as long as he doesn't raise you (now of course there is a chance he will be slowplaying but that's why we weight him having a better hand to the narrow side of his range - maybe, say, there's a 10% chance this guy would slowplay, which means only 1/10 times you are beat!) you can assume you likely have the best hand and take the line that produces the most +EV against the rest of his range. which is betting. because he is passive.

that make sense? you might want to read phil galfond's brilliant article in bluff magazine (you can find it with some googling) on g-bucks, which breaks this concept down on a more technical level (WiltOnTilt covers the math behind it, too, in the last episode of his Season One series for DC).

i think i get it, most of the time with a hand like what i have i need only bet/bet/bet. it should almost be automatic vs passive players. i need only stop to think when i'm reraised.

phil's article if anyone is interested: https://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/2007/04/2007_04_52.asp

i will have to reread that 3 times to really understand it. for the most part it's understandable, but when he gets deeper and talks about balancing your ranges in order to increase G-bucks, that shit is deep. i'll have to mull this stuff over on the toilet. i guess this is the very reason why high stakes games are so aggressive. cool article.