Mid/High Stakes Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

Villain is woodrow15, a very experienced tough high limit player who I have played very little with. He knows who I am but we have relatively no dynamic. He is aware I am taking a shot in this game with all the money in my pocket if its relevant.

Villain opens UTG+1 7 handed, folded to me and I call in BB with Q Q

Flop is 7 4 3 I checkraise and he 3 bets. I think that's an ok place to start - what's the plan?

Well I'm definitely taking a shot by replying in this thread, but I guess I'd start with a 4bet on the flop, planning to lead the turn if called, probably check the turn if 5bet.

Seems like you have to put more action in with your hand, but I wouldn't be planning on putting in more than one more aggressive action.

call down.

He has 1 combo of AKs, all the rest that he's spazzing with is way ahead/way behind. You can't fold but you don't like your hand much against an UTG range. He can't put you on QQ so he'll barrel 99+ all the way, which's what you want.

Also, what about c/r turn instead? A lot of turn cards are going to save you from getting 3bet by better which's a niiice.

I like the 4bet play.

But the best line here really depends on what he thinks your plan is with the different chunks of your range here. Particularly your nutty and medium strength hands.

If he can get away from the bottom of his range that we're crushing (88-JJ) because of what he thinks of your range, then call down is your answer. If not, then there's too much value in keeping initiative and betting down because your range has more nutty combos than his if the deck bricks off which is what'll happen most of the time. 8/34 (2 - J + K) bad cards in the deck for you. Interestingly enough on the A you have 52% equity on the turn, 46% on the K and like 40% equity on all other clubs.

Some stovey numbersy stuff to think about:

Looking at his flop 3betting range and being a bit conservative he has:
AX where X is the 4 or higher, KT+, 77+.

18.5% of his range is KK+.
18.5% of his range is flush draws mostly weighted towards the AX combos (9 AX and 3 KX combos to be exact).
And the rest of his range has a huge target on it saying value town me!

What you do after 4betting and he calls and turn is a , or when he 5bets and the turn is a is a really interesting spot though. And a tough spot with most of your range.

BigOuts, I think its somewhat of a mistake to give him so many flush draw combos? I mean A x has very little incentive to 3 bet on the flop considering lack of fold equity vs better hands + position + implied odds to just call.

Anyway, my thoughts on the flop are that my flop CR range here has tons of one pair hands and a few draws / pair + draw combos. So my range here generally hates getting 3 bet and I think to protect that fact calling his 3 bet intending to CR turn is by far the best play.

I think against a weaker player or someone who might take free cards / get scared on the turn 4 betting is usually better.

So I called and the turn was 4 - is that card bad enough to abandon the CR plan and just call down?

BigOuts, I think its somewhat of a mistake to give him so many flush draw combos? I mean A x has very little incentive to 3 bet on the flop considering lack of fold equity vs better hands + position + implied odds to just call.

It likely is a mistake to weight it so heavily, I guess. I think I just forgot to weight stuff when messing with the ranges in poker stove.

I can run it through flopzilla and give you a better idea of the breakdown of how often he has what and the hand combos if you want.

Anyway, my thoughts on the flop are that my flop CR range here has tons of one pair hands and a few draws / pair + draw combos.

Agreed.

So my range here generally hates getting 3 bet and I think to protect that fact calling his 3 bet intending to CR turn is by far the best play.

Yes and a question. Doesn't it depend on how he's weighting his overpairs for whether or not CR is best on turn with the QQ? Because of the hand combos of worse vs better (15 crushing and 24 we're crushing) assuming that he never folds 88-JJ against this line? We need to be ahead of his range 2/3 of the time to go for value on the turn right? EDIT: I guess I'm neglecting the flush draws as I'm unsure of how many combos exist in his range after discounting them. So that might change whether call down or CR is better. As it stands it seems pretty close to me.

I think against a weaker player or someone who might take free cards / get scared on the turn 4 betting is usually better.

I totally agree. It's probably why I'm so partial to the 4 bet.

So I called and the turn was 4 - is that card bad enough to abandon the CR plan and just call down?

It really depends on what he's doing with the different parts of his range on the flop and how they're weighted. Namely the worse hands you're getting value from (can they find folds on this card?), the flush draws (weighting here? As I'm waaaaay off on how he weights this so grain of salt), and the better overpair / set combos and how he weights those since those aren't folding and really punish your specific hand.
To me it seems like a bad enough card to go into call down mode.

Raise. The board belongs a typical BB range, which you certainly do not have. He's firing off most of his Ace-high combinations to likely get control as he is in position and possibly a cheaper showdown. (in addition to his smaller pairs to yours) You called the BB with a beast, now play your hand like you have one.

Raise. The board belongs a typical BB range, which you certainly do not have. He's firing off most of his Ace-high combinations to likely get control as he is in position and possibly a cheaper showdown. You called the BB with a beast, now play your hand like you have one.

I think we should call the flop intending to c/r lots of turn cards. What's the turn card?

BigOuts:

Yeah, I think you are basically saying all the right things, its just that you sort of ask questions that if we knew the answers to poker would be trivially easy

As an educated guess I'd say he never folds 88-JJ to me, but he can maybe find some folds with like combo pair + draws if he has any if he bricks the river. I also don't think I would ever get reraised by like AA/KK after CRing turn.

I think we should call the flop intending to c/r lots of turn cards. What's the turn card?

Oh the 4 of clubs. Yuck. I still c/r I guess. I'd really expect him not to 3bet a lot of his flush draw combos on the flop, especially since he knows you're taking a shot and he has no reason to put a lot of action in with Ax or Kx of clubs. I think we're still well ahead of his range plus you'll want to c/r this particular turn card as a bluff with nearly any straight draw with which you c/r the flop so your range can't be too polarized here.

Anyway, my thoughts on the flop are that my flop CR range here has tons of one pair hands and a few draws / pair + draw combos. So my range here generally hates getting 3 bet and I think to protect that fact calling his 3 bet intending to CR turn is by far the best play.

I think against a weaker player or someone who might take free cards / get scared on the turn 4 betting is usually better.

So I called and the turn was 4 - is that card bad enough to abandon the CR plan and just call down?

Good point on the flop, I take my reply back. Call/cr turn given it's Woodrow.

Would he 3-bet 88-JJ on this flop?

Would he 3-bet 88-JJ on this flop?

If not his flop 3bet seems pretty poor, especially against DD taking a shot.

Villain is woodrow15, a very experienced tough high limit player who I have played very little with. He knows who I am but we have relatively no dynamic. He is aware I am taking a shot in this game with all the money in my pocket if its relevant.

Villain opens UTG+1 7 handed, folded to me and I call in BB with Q Q

Flop is 7 4 3 I checkraise and he 3 bets. I think that's an ok place to start - what's the plan?

Is it as common in live High stakes games to call your entire playing range in the BB HU as it is online? ie, does he know you would play QQ this way?

Id be tempted to 4 bet the flop oop on this board as there are plenty of turn cards we wont know what to do with and just call down a 5bet.

OTR- would you like a turn c/r more/less or the same on say a T42r board?