Secret HQ Poker Forums

Complete these two sentences (obviously un-related to the previous post):

I would stack off with the ___ nut flush 100% of the time on an un-paired turn vs any villain in the world - even against Oliver or Durr. (i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc).

ZOMG, he stacked off with the ___ nut flush, what a freaking fish. Insta-add him to my buddy list and PM all of my friends his screen-name. Again, un-paired board on the turn.

Depends on our perceived strength (if we are the preflop raiser) and game dynamics.

Ok, so I don't know how to approach this, in game. I need help.

So, can we at least agree that we are never folding the nuts to a shove on the turn?

Ok, so we find ourselves on the turn now with the 2nd nuts. I am not good enough to tell the difference in how most players would play JTs from the CO vs A7s. Lets say it is an un-opened pot. MP tag opens. Folds to us in the BB and we have K9s. We have a pretty hand that we are fine seeing a flop with, no need to 3b this OOp, so we call.

Flop comes Ad7s2s. We check, he cbets 3/4 pot, we call with our FD. Turn is the Qs. We check and he shoves.

So, how am I supposed to know right now if he has the nuts or the 3rd nuts?

Thus, it is going to take me some number of hands + education + re-claiming lost brain cells + a lock of Durrrrs hair to make a magic poker potion before I am able to intuit the difference between the nuts and the 3rd nuts. I want to get better - I am trying really hard, but it will take time.

How do I lose the least amount of $$ possible between now and then? Please don't say quit playing poker. Ive already failed at giving up poker.

Ok, so I don't know how to approach this, in game. I need help.

So, can we at least agree that we are never folding the nuts to a shove on the turn?

Ok, so we find ourselves on the turn now with the 2nd nuts. I am not good enough to tell the difference in how most players would play JTs from the CO vs A7s. Lets say it is an un-opened pot. MP tag opens. Folds to us in the BB and we have K9s. We have a pretty hand that we are fine seeing a flop with, no need to 3b this OOp, so we call.

Flop comes Ad7s2s. We check, he cbets 3/4 pot, we call with our FD. Turn is the Qs. We check and he shoves.

So, how am I supposed to know right now if he has the nuts or the 3rd nuts?

Thus, it is going to take me some number of hands + education + re-claiming lost brain cells + a lock of Durrrrs hair to make a magic poker potion before I am able to intuit the difference between the nuts and the 3rd nuts.

How do I lose the least amount of $$ possible between now and then? Please don't say quit playing poker. Ive already gone busto at giving up poker.

Im a fish.. I did not read your original post correct. I will think about an answer.

Im a fish.. I did not read your original post correct. I will think about an answer.

Probably because my original post wasn't very good . Hope I didn't sound rude or anything in that second post- wasnt trying to be if I did.

Thinking about it more and trying to express myself better:

I am just wondering what the math would look like I guess - the overall probability of your opponent holding the Ace along with another card of the same suit in 6max.

I mean my gut tells me that never folding the 2nd nuts would probably be profitable long term regardless of opponent, but somewhere between 3rd and 4th nuts, we need to start proceeding with great care if the villain is showing a tremendous amount of strength.

Of course once we know what those numbers are we can adjust for villain type. If we are facing a super nit, we can add +2, if we are facing a lag-tard, we can subtract 3, etc.

Im just looking for a way to stop the bleeding until I can hand-read like a grown up.

lol

Probably because my original post wasn't very good . Hope I didn't sound rude or anything in that second post- wasnt trying to be if I did.

Thinking about it more and trying to express myself better:

I am just wondering what the math would look like I guess - the overall probability of your opponent holding the Ace along with another card of the same suit in 6max.

I mean my gut tells me that never folding the 2nd nuts would probably be profitable long term regardless of opponent, but somewhere between 3rd and 4th nuts, we need to start proceeding with great care if the villain is showing a tremendous amount of strength.

Of course once we know what those numbers are we can adjust for villain type. If we are facing a super nit, we can add +2, if we are facing a lag-tard, we can subtract 3, etc.

Im just looking for a way to stop the bleeding until I can hand-read like a grown up.

lol

Hi, I don't have an answer, but its something that I have also wondered about. Often I read about 'adjusting' to different types of opponents, and i can see the logic behind various adjustments, my problem is more knowing what the 'default' is prior to adjusting! Hopefully this remark is relevant to your questions (if not I'm sorry for intruding!). Heads-up in principal there is a Game Theory Optimal answer to these questions, but its not known so we have to rely on experience and the expertise/intuition of top players [who mostly try to exploit rather than play anything like GTO]. I'd be very interested in Oliver's views on this. For example could we write down a few flop textures and come up with the sort of advice you are after where we can reason that our line is fairly unexploitable - obv. with Oliver's input?

My opinion FWIW [I'm only a 'winner' at NL25 and below ATM ] is that (assuming only 100bb deep) you'd probably 'never' [v. rarely?] fold somewhat worse than you suggest. Simply because villain must be agressive with a wide range of hands in order that he does not give up value against our other hands. I'd love to see this debate for different flop textures - along with the equivalent question about the bottom-end of our bluffing range etc

Got some more board textures

T Q 4

so his c/r hands would be {KJ, JJ ,J9 , FD , KT, JT } would that make sense ?

what is your plan if you get c/r or raised on this flop w AQ ? call and check fold ?

what do you do on the turn with a A hitting ? check call , fold to river ?

8 7 3

So I assume if your opponent is a thinking player your getting c/r and raised allot here ?

I mean if he hit any piece which would be over pairs , TP or strait draw and you have a high enough cb frequency your getting c/r or raised ?

So other way around , if you have a opponent with high cb your should be c/r or raising him here with over cards as bluffs and some air ?

Trying to figure out if someone has nuts or 3rd nuts is almost impossible except in the most exact circumstances. It is mostly a read of the player's table image not the hand you're in. I'd say close to 100% of time these hands are going to be played the same by villain. Some times the answer is I was coolered, and move on. Again not impossible to get a read a make a great fold but the stars have to align just right. You're not just playing against his chances of having one hand but against his range that includes many worse hands and a better flush. With all the value of a flush it's pretty hard to find a time when folding to the possibly higher flush, given his whole range, is optimal. All this is assuming we're talking about 3fl on board not 4.

Got some more board textures

T Q 4

so his c/r hands would be {KJ, JJ ,J9 , FD , KT, JT } would that make sense ?

Why would he C/R JJ, KT or JT ? Those are bluff catchers and are showdownable hands.
Besides, if your opponent is a thinking player he knows that this board is super drawy and that he will probably be called lighter than usual.
Sometimes you will see some players C/R a 4x or a low pair (55->99) on that board trying to win the pot immediately hoping you didn't connect. Usually they shut down on the turn UI.
I would say my C/R range on that board would be any set, QT, a FD, an OESD and AJ especially if villain is c-bet happy.

what is your plan if you get c/r or raised on this flop w AQ ? call and check fold ?

This is very opponent dependent.
Against some nitty players you may pitch the hand immediately because you know they are playing their draws passively and you are crushed by their range.
Against aggressive players you might want to go all the way with this hand and get it in because it will be very hard to play OOP in later streets.
Against others you may call and check/fold the turn UI because once you called their raise, these players will check behind their semi bluffing hands on the turn.
IP, I would fold very rarely unless I have a very good read on the player type.
OOP, I would be more enclined to call with some backdoor equity (with the A for ex.)

what do you do on the turn with a A hitting ? check call , fold to river ?

I'm not sure why you mention the A specifically. Maybe it is the A ?

8 7 3

So I assume if your opponent is a thinking player your getting c/r and raised allot here ?

I mean if he hit any piece which would be over pairs , TP or strait draw and you have a high enough cb frequency your getting c/r or raised ?

If villain raises that flop, he's repping T9, 65, a set or a slowplayed big OVP... and he should expect to get called by a strong range only because the board is quite dry.
So this is probably a good board to C/R for value if the PFR range is strong and a good board to C/R as a bluff if the PFR range is wide.

I'm not sure why a villain would raise JJ-99 on that board unless he sees you as the spazzy type who will attempt a 3 bet bluff thinking he's bluffing.

Usually villain would also call his TP hands because he can't expect to get a lot of value with them : what is he getting value from with A8 for example ?

So other way around , if you have a opponent with high cb your should be c/r or raising him here with over cards as bluffs and some air ?

Definitely, especially if villain's range is wide (CO or BTN's range).
But beware of some opponent's who are capable of floating your C/R with air using their position because they also know that this board isn't likely to have hit you strongly.

I'm not sure why you mention the A specifically. Maybe it is the A ?

sorry I mean the A

For those of you who have yet to receive coaching from Oliver, all I can say is that you are in for a treat.

cool !

Im trying to get mine set up with him soon

took my second shot at 100 nl and it went awful I don't get what Im doing wrong ... I feel that Im getting the worst swings when I play there . Then I go back to 50nl and kill it.

Complete these two sentences (obviously un-related to the previous post):

I would stack off with the ___ nut flush 100% of the time on an un-paired turn vs any villain in the world - even against Oliver or Durr. (i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc).

ZOMG, he stacked off with the ___ nut flush, what a freaking fish. Insta-add him to my buddy list and PM all of my friends his screen-name. Again, un-paired board on the turn.

Which range is wider? Our value betting range or our bluff catching range?

Which range is wider? Our value betting range or our bluff catching range?

Apparently, my value cutting range is the widest of them all, imo.

I get what you are saying, thx.