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I have a question w/ QQ in a 3bet pot OOP a little deep against what appears to be a reg and prolly a massive multi tabler.

My image has been a bit loose and selectively aggressive, cuz I have two fish type villains to my right. The villain in this hand seems straight forward and I like having him to my left ( straight forward and doesn't defend blinds)

Anyway, I haven't seen villain 3 bet so I'm assuming he has a polarized range ( good assumption ? )...I don't want to 4 bet and stare at a 5 bet which will probably mean business, so I decided to see a flop.

I checked the flop with the intention of looking to c/r or call.....Didn't happen.

Turn: I decided to lead because his flop action looks weak...I thought he would bet AK,AQ and AJs, ATS, JJ and TT

River: I describe his range as inelastic ( correct ?) and was debating on the bet size. My first thought was a little more than 1/2 pot but against an inelastic range should we bet bigger when we have the best hand ??? Would $20 or pot and smile be better ?

I would hate to fold to a raise on the river and that was one determining factor on the bet size...

Appreciate the help guys...

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 142753
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $61.75
BTN: $106.80
SB: $50.00
BB: $24.50
UTG: $16.05
MP: $62.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with Q Q
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $5, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.75) 8 6 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($10.75) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $7, BTN calls $7

River: ($24.75) T (2 players)
[color=red]Hero bets ????

I almost died choking on my coffee........While I'm at it, I'd also like to add Julia to my list. I can only imagine the great arguments and fights, the 3 of us would enjoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Child ?

I would hate to fold to a raise on the river and that was one determining factor on the bet size...

I think I like a check/call on the river actually. If he has busted spades or something like JTs or some sort of pocket pair, he might go ahead and stab here. I mean based on the action, this doesnt really feel like a better hand than you here, but I think I would rather check/call in this spot than bet/fold.

Flame away boys, flame away!

lol

I think I like a check/call on the river actually. If he has busted spades or something like JTs or some sort of pocket pair, he might go ahead and stab here. I mean based on the action, this doesnt really feel like a better hand than you here, but I think I would rather check/call in this spot than bet/fold.

Flame away boys, flame away!

lol

That did cross my mind but I disregarded it because I didn't have any prior history, with him, that would lead me to believe he would take a stab....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Child ?

NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

River: I describe his range as inelastic ( correct ?) and was debating on the bet size. My first thought was a little more than 1/2 pot but against an inelastic range should we bet bigger when we have the best hand ??? Would $20 or pot and smile be better ?

I would hate to fold to a raise on the river and that was one determining factor on the bet size...

Well, take a look at his line. He opted not to cbet this flop, why not? There can be many factors... you called a 3bet OOP. The flop is very drawwy. He calls your turn lead, so he either has something that wants to get to showdown, or just picked up a draw. So, maybe low pocket pairs or AK-AJ of clubs.

On the river, he will rarely have a 7 because he would cbet a OESD. So the only part of his range you are afraid of now is the flush draw. If you check to him, the top of his range will bet 100% of the time and the bottom part will bet X% of the time. If you bet, the top of his range will raise close to 100% (unless he is afraid of boat for some reason?), and the bottom of his range will fold close to 100% of the time, and add in maybe a few small bluff raises.

So if the X is even as low as 10% of the time, checking here to induce will give you more money.

Hopefully this makes sense... let me try and rephrase it. He will fold all the hands you beat if you bet, but if you check, you can get some extra money from those hands. If you are bet/folding, you may as well check/call because you will lose the same amount of money as if you bet/fold, but will win extra money.

How does that sound?

Thanks for the breakdown, and I do like it. This is a example of a spot where I'm not sure of the best way to get value and lack of info on the lines villain takes made my decision even more difficult.

Thanks again...

am i weird for thinking the exact opposite in this hand, and that he almost always have you beat when he bets this river and probably also checks behind with most hands you beat. there are not many bluff hands he can end up with when this river completes almost all draws.

his range for checking back the flop are marginal hands, decent hands that can't stand a raise and air that is giving up. i would assume he almost always bets spades on the flop. on the turn he calls with most of his made hands, something like T8, T9, 77, 87.. + the hands that pick up a flush draw. i definitely can't see him call with 22-55 when it is very likely he will face another bet on the river. if he does call with these hands, it makes no sense for him to bet river imo.

long story short, i simply don't think villain has enough bluffing hands, while he certainly has a lot of hands that will call a bet.

long story short, i simply don't think villain has enough bluffing hands, while he certainly has a lot of hands that will call a bet.

Hm, I don't see a lot of hands which are still in his range on the river he calls a bet with, except some Tx-combos. And if OP is true and villains 3bet range is polarized, there are nearly none of them in his range, because he will fold the offsuit-combos pre and flat the suited ones often.

am i weird for thinking the exact opposite in this hand, and that he almost always have you beat when he bets this river and probably also checks behind with most hands you beat. there are not many bluff hands he can end up with when this river completes almost all draws.

It is true that you can get some thin value here, so you would need to make a small bet, like $10. But in this case, he 3bet pre, and checked behind on the flop and just called on the turn. So he does not have a monster, he has a weak hand. Us calling a 3bet OOP is somewhat strong. Our flop check was for a check/raise, but still looked weak. If we barrel on the river, there isn't much he can call with. He has position on us, and is playing for a small pot. So maybe he will think he can take it away.

And let's assume he checks behind, and we may have missed some thin value. We do get to see what he 3bet us with IP, so the knowledge is just as good as the thin value imo.

his range for checking back the flop are marginal hands, decent hands that can't stand a raise and air that is giving up. i would assume he almost always bets spades on the flop. on the turn he calls with most of his made hands, something like T8, T9, 77, 87.. + the hands that pick up a flush draw. i definitely can't see him call with 22-55 when it is very likely he will face another bet on the river. if he does call with these hands, it makes no sense for him to bet river imo.

Wouldn't he bet 77, 87 on this flop? And I can see him doing this with a low pocket pair. People love to put 3bet OOP callers on AK.

But in this case, he 3bet pre, and checked behind on the flop and just called on the turn. So he does not have a monster, he has a weak hand. Us calling a 3bet OOP is somewhat strong.

@ Jonk....The point you brought up, regarding his hand being on the weak end of "strong weak" was what I thought about during and after the hand....TEC will say that when he has a inelastic hand the bet size doesn't matter and when we have a strong or best hand we should bet bigger.

What I'm getting at is whether or not a small bet size, on the river, would amount to ignoring TEC advice. I was confused because I can see the merit of betting small or checking. However, I ultimately would like to think I can assess what would be the most +EV line...

Thanks again guys.

I have a question w/ QQ in a 3bet pot OOP a little deep against what appears to be a reg and prolly a massive multi tabler.

My image has been a bit loose and selectively aggressive, cuz I have two fish type villains to my right. The villain in this hand seems straight forward and I like having him to my left ( straight forward and doesn't defend blinds)

Anyway, I haven't seen villain 3 bet so I'm assuming he has a polarized range ( good assumption ? )...I don't want to 4 bet and stare at a 5 bet which will probably mean business, so I decided to see a flop.

Yup! Calling is fine. 4-betting is also +EV since he is likely to have if hands in his range that will fold to the 4-bet to compensate for the fact that he also will flip over AA and KK sometimes.

I checked the flop with the intention of looking to c/r or call.....Didn't happen.

I would prefer to check-call since he will fold all hands we are ahead of.
When he checks he is either giving up, has a weak hand with showdown value or a draw that will cry if you check-raise.

You have the best hand

Turn: I decided to lead because his flop action looks weak...I thought he would bet AK,AQ and AJs, ATS, JJ and TT

yup! - I would bet pot. Since he is likely to bluff catch with his bluff catchers - expect you to bluff with a large part of your range after he checked back the flop - and shove/fold with draws. I'm happy to get it in.

River: I describe his range as inelastic ( correct ?) and was debating on the bet size. My first thought was a little more than 1/2 pot but against an inelastic range should we bet bigger when we have the best hand ??? Would $20 or pot and smile be better ?

ydrk.. nasty river. Many of the hands that call your turn bet just improved. I think I like to check/fold the river since I don't expect villain to bluff often enough (or for a strange reason valuebet a hand like T8). If we bet the river it is pretty clear that we have JJ+ and villian will only bluff catch if he is showdown happy.

So yes villains range is inelastic but has hands in the range that now beat you and you look very strong on the river if you bet. If we decide to bet the river we should bet/fold and bet small because we do not want to get value cut too deep.. and we allow him to bluff catch cheap

I would hate to fold to a raise on the river and that was one determining factor on the bet size...

Appreciate the help guys...

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 142753
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $61.75
BTN: $106.80
SB: $50.00
BB: $24.50
UTG: $16.05
MP: $62.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with Q Q
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $5, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.75) 8 6 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($10.75) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $7, BTN calls $7

River: ($24.75) T (2 players)
[color=red]Hero bets ????

Sounds good....Thanks, to everyone, for the help :-)

Sounds good....Thanks, to everyone, for the help :-)

what was result? Or did you check/fold so we don't know what he was playing?

what was result? Or did you check/fold so we don't know what he was playing?

I bet $15 and he folded...

Oliver - Id love to see a vid of you playing some low stakes - i.e. a couple hundo hands of 100nl. anyone else?

Oliver - Id love to see a vid of you playing some low stakes - i.e. a couple hundo hands of 100nl. anyone else?

+1

Oliver - Id love to see a vid of you playing some low stakes - i.e. a couple hundo hands of 100nl. anyone else?

Right now a 400NL vid is tilting the #"¤%#"% out of me. The people who made Camtasia should stay home tonight!

100NL is up next... I anybody has a vid and want me to comment on it as an example let me know.

On a side note I have a new version of How low can you go on the way.

I have done some research and thinking about that topic lately.

The super short version is:

The more potential bluff catchers villain has in his range the bigger we should bet (if we also barrel the turn). It is mostly relevant for dry flops.

K44r -> bet bigger on the flop because 88 will bluff catch anyway and fold to further action on the turn. We want him to make a mistake.

KQ5r -> bet smallish (5 into 8) on the flop since we are not going to try to get villain to fold on the turn.

How do you guys like the fundamental idea? It is a result of thinking a little bit about inelastic ranges. Does it make sense?

K44r -> bet bigger on the flop because 88 will bluff catch anyway and fold to further action on the turn. We want him to make a mistake.

Yea, I think your right. 88 = the nuts on K44 imo.

On a side note I have a new version of How low can you go on the way.

I have done some research and thinking about that topic lately.

The super short version is:

The more potential bluff catchers villain has in his range the bigger we should bet (if we also barrel the turn). It is mostly relevant for dry flops.

K44r -> bet bigger on the flop because 88 will bluff catch anyway and fold to further action on the turn. We want him to make a mistake.

How do you guys like the fundamental idea? It is a result of thinking a little bit about inelastic ranges. Does it make sense?

How big would you make your flop bet? like 3/4th to pot? Also how big do you bet the turn then? You make it the same size as the flop (will some villains argue bet sizing tells if we make it only 1/2 pot on the turn then?)

If we have to include some stats I think this is really cool against guys that fold like 50% on the flop and 50% on the turn (or even bigger on the turn) - those are fairly common in the games I play. Against them double barreling is cool in general....

Gonna try this out the next times I play

How big would you make your flop bet? like 3/4th to pot? Also how big do you bet the turn then? You make it the same size as the flop (will some villains argue bet sizing tells if we make it only 1/2 pot on the turn then?)

If we have to include some stats I think this is really cool against guys that fold like 50% on the flop and 50% on the turn (or even bigger on the turn) - those are fairly common in the games I play. Against them double barreling is cool in general....

Gonna try this out the next times I play

If the pot is 14$ think I would bet:

FLOP: 12$ => 38$ turn pot

TURN: 31$ => 100$ river pot

RIVER: The amount that I think he will call with the top of his bluff catching range.

On a side note I have a new version of How low can you go on the way.

I have done some research and thinking about that topic lately.

The super short version is:

The more potential bluff catchers villain has in his range the bigger we should bet (if we also barrel the turn). It is mostly relevant for dry flops.

K44r -> bet bigger on the flop because 88 will bluff catch anyway and fold to further action on the turn. We want him to make a mistake.

KQ5r -> bet smallish (5 into 8) on the flop since we are not going to try to get villain to fold on the turn.

How do you guys like the fundamental idea? It is a result of thinking a little bit about inelastic ranges. Does it make sense?

Personally I'm very keen on this - the more on Flop Texture/analysis the better since this is obviously very important and the more different 'models' we have the better (I like the elastic/inelasitc model, and think more examples is always good). FWIW I get the first example immediately, I'll think about the second one a bit more.

EDIT: in the second one he's much more 'inelastic', so we bet small and he'll fold most of anything he'll ever fold. We give up on the turn if we dont have anything ourselves?

Personally I'm very keen on this - the more on Flop Texture/analysis the better since this is obviously very important and the more different 'models' we have the better (I like the elastic/inelasitc model, and think more examples is always good). FWIW I get the first example immediately, I'll think about the second one a bit more.

EDIT: in the second one he's much more 'inelastic', so we bet small and he'll fold most of anything he'll ever fold. We give up on the turn if we dont have anything ourselves?

On KQ5r we seldom get called by 77. The reason is our high percieved strength. It terms on honesty. We expect villain's point of honesty to be on the flop. Most of villains preflop calling range is inelastic to our bet size: Kx, Qx and draws will almost always call. Weak made hands and air almost always fold.

Remember that elasticity is defined as the number #elastic / #inelastic.

Why not you bet big? Well, because we have very few hands in our range that want to play a really big pot and a lot of bluffs and semi-bluffs. Most of the time we bet here because we want to take the pot down.

Personally I'm very keen on this - the more on Flop Texture/analysis the better since this is obviously very important and the more different 'models' we have the better (I like the elastic/inelasitc model, and think more examples is always good).

+1

Seriously tho , I love everything you bring to the table Oliver . This ebook has been the best tool I ever had ! My understanding of poker has increased tremendously and I feel that my potential to get better is expanding every time I use your book

Thank you gain Oliver

There is a 100NL in Ghost format rendering on my computer ATM. I have not done a ton of videos with live commentary before and I do get owned a couple of times. But I think it could be a fun vid for you guys (and you did ask for it).