Coaching Poker Forums

EDIT: Sorry this is so long I'm watching the first World Cup match and just rambling. My bad...

Does anyone else find it quite hard to judge how good your coaches were from an informational perspective?

I've had probably 10 coaches in my career and I can say who's good/bad but most of those judgements comes from how professional they were/how much they wanted me to improve/etc, etc. If you got me to rank them in terms of how good they were at teaching (or how much good stuff the taught me) I'd have a ton of trouble differentiating them. And I think from this is where a lot of the trouble comes from, right now students assess coaches and I think they're really not in positions to accurately do so.

Absolutely right. You can see great examples of this with breathweapon... A guy on 2+2 who said he beat 2/4 for 4 ptbb / 100, but would coach SSNL guys for like $100 / hr. His coaching thread is full of glowing reviews about how he is great, amazing value, did so much for my game........ except then people looked into him and he's actually a 6 ptbb loser at .50/1 NL. Thread here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/164/poker-coach-listings/20-thru-200nl-6max-coaching-675760/

Often there's an attribution error here as well. The kind of guy that's gonna pay for coaching is also the kind of guy who is going to work harder on his game than the average player. So you sign up for lessons with breathweapon who sucks and is a fraud and a liar and you get better at poker, wow how is this possible?? It's possible because you actually got better on your own and are mistakenly giving him the credit.

So with that in mind, coaching reviews from players should count only towards those intangibles: he explains things well (whether or not they are wrong things), he's a nice guy, he cares about me getting better.

There are some cognitive biases at work here. The big one I don't remember the name for, but it's basically if you spend a lot of money on something you are a lot more likely to think it's good, even if it's not good. There are a lot of studies confirming this tendency- it's just something your brain does to make you feel better, you're not cognizant of the fact that it's doing it.

Also you admire the guy which is why you hired him in the first place so you're more likely to think well about him.

Otis, would you think Isildur is qualified to coach, being as he's got a negative graph on PTR? (Assuming he's not got any other strikes against him.)

Absolutely 100%. I'd take coaching from that guy all day long. He's made millions on euro sites, just because he hasn't been able to beat Phil Ivey or Jman doesn't mean he's not in the top .1% of players in the world. It's also worth noting that while he is down $$ his PTBB / 100 is positive. PTR is not everything, the guy has an extremely impressive poker resume.

But there's a big difference between isildur and tubasteve. I think it's likely that tubasteve never ever won any significant amount of money at poker. He's certainly never shown any evidence to the contrary, and when I watched vids he made in the past I was kinda shocked at times. Again, sorry to single this guy out but someone started this thread about him so he's our example.

I think people have misunderstood my points here: what I think is the most unethical thing here is selling coaching from people that have been falsely labeled. Bio info should absolutely be more up to date and more thorough to give people a clear idea that they the guy actually has some poker credentials. This isn't done right now because it isn't necessary- people will pay the money and as long as the coach is a nice guy and attentive people will generally think they received value whether they did or did not.

Something like "tubasteve probably never made a lot of money at poker and he doesn't earn any money at poker now but he posted a lot on 2+2 and made a semi-famous name by spending a lot of time talking poker with noobs. Decent MSNL players that have watched has vids are at times totally baffled but on the other hand he is definitely attentive to his clients and they generally really like him." Maybe this bio is unfair, and he killed the games in 2008 for 6 ptbb, if this is the case it should totally be shown too, it counts (and IMO the games weren't aren't soooooooooo much worse now than they were then.) Then you can better decide whether that's worth $90 / hour.

More of a poker resume should be in the bios. With money. And winrates. You can say "Oh I want my privacy", but when a guy is paying me $200 / hr to tell him how to play poker I think my privacy rights should take a back seat. Guys who are crushing the games generally don't have a problem showing some graphs to prospective students. Guys who aren't, and a lot of coaches aren't, obviously scream for their privacy. Screen names don't need to be divulged, any DC higher-up can verify of course. This step alone would eliminate all the major coaching frauds and scams that have ever come out from breathweapon to Jason Ho to many others I'm sure I'm not thinking of.

This vetting is so very important because of the adverse selection problem that you get with coaching.... basically the fact that people who make a lot at poker are generally less interested in doing a ton of coaching, but a ton of people out there that suck at poker see the opportunity to make some long pooh-bah posts, get some internet fans and then make money selling their time. $90 / hour is a lot of money to anyone that can't win at poker.

To be a good poker coach you have to be a good poker player. Good poker players have won money at poker and generally they still do.

I know people take offense to posts like this because there's not a lot of dissent on these forums at all but I really don't think they should be offended- I really think these suggestions could help people do a better job selecting coaches (and I know it's already happened, I've received a lot of PMs here and elsewhere feeding my huge ego and saying I'm awesome) and make DC a better site.

You don't need to have more knowledge than someone else necessarily to tell if they are full of it. Watch any sport and you'll find a commentator who has more knowledge and access than you, and you can still tell when he spouts crap.

I strongly disagree with this. I don't think weaker players can tell when a better player is full of it, especially guys from micro stakes. Poker is just different than anything else because you can rationalize almost any decision and make it sound intelligent. This is how jason ho and breathweapon, among others, fooled students into thinking they were really good at poker when in fact they were completely awful.

I strongly disagree with this. I don't think weaker players can tell when a better player is full of it, especially guys from micro stakes. Poker is just different than anything else because you can rationalize almost any decision and make it sound intelligent. This is how jason ho and breathweapon, among others, fooled students into thinking they were really good at poker when in fact they were completely awful.

Ok... But the main difference here is that this is not 2+2. Jason Ho and Breathweapon can't just list themselves here, throw up a bunch of bullshit testimonials and start scamming people.

It's actually against the terms and conditions to try and solicit coaching here.

So what you're basically saying is that because Tubasteve hasn't played much poker recently, he is a scam artist, or that all of the knowledge he has picked up over the years is irrelevant because he doesn't play much anymore.

So what you're basically saying is that because Tubasteve hasn't played much poker recently, he is a scam artist, or that all of the knowledge he has picked up over the years is irrelevant because he doesn't play much anymore.

I wouldn't dare to say tubasteve is a scam artist just because I have no idea who he is. I don't remember watching his videos or reading his posts (I play PLO). That said, it is slightly disturbing to me why he hasn't taken 2 minutes to post a graph and discredit this whole thread, or the idea of him not being a successful poker player.

I'm sure a lot of people don't need him to, but I'm also sure there are some new DC members that would appreciate the matter coming to an end. And I sincerely don't see why that would be a big deal. Am I missing something?

I strongly disagree with this. I don't think weaker players can tell when a better player is full of it, especially guys from micro stakes. Poker is just different than anything else because you can rationalize almost any decision and make it sound intelligent.

Poker is not different than anything else because you can bullshit and sound good. I can do that over any number of topics. Politicians make a living at that. And I sincerely hope you don't listen to Phil Simms's commentary.


orestto, I think if you were interested in tubasteve as a coach, he would probably provide you with graphs. I can't say why he hasn't in this thread, but I can say if I were him, I wouldn't be rushing to post graphs over some guy randomly talking shit about me.
You can see ~11,500 hands tuba played in Road to Robusto NL episode 8, which is about the same number of hands in the PTR link in the OP. And you can see all of his stats, not just a graph.

Ok... But the main difference here is that this is not 2+2. Jason Ho and Breathweapon can't just list themselves here, throw up a bunch of bullshit testimonials and start scamming people.

Jason Ho was a stox/cardrunners coach and they were a very reputable site at the time. The testimonials weren't bullshit they were posted by people who had received training and thought it was great.

So what you're basically saying is that because Tubasteve hasn't played much poker recently, he is a scam artist, or that all of the knowledge he has picked up over the years is irrelevant because he doesn't play much anymore.

I'm not calling anyone a scam artist, I'm sure he thinks he's really good at poker. I'm saying that he's most likely not worth $90 / hr, he might be worth I dunno $30 or so to get an absolute beginner on the right track.

You're losing sight of the main point which is if a guy doesn't play poker but spends a lot of time coaching it's usually because he's not good enough to win at it but likes getting money. There are coaches that actually win though, so go get one of those. Hielko, who posted here already, is very good and only $30 more than tuba.

I can't say why he hasn't in this thread, but I can say if I were him, I wouldn't be rushing to post graphs over some guy randomly talking shit about me.

I didn't start the thread, someone else did. He could end it all by just posting some graphs of him with a good winrate at SSNL over a decent sample size. That would shut me up and I'd say I misjudged him and apologize. He'd look cool in front of everyone and silence the haters. Objective evidence that he's a good player. I think there's a more obvious reason he doesn't do that.

Poker is not different than anything else because you can bullshit and sound good. I can do that over any number of topics. Politicians make a living at that.

I really believe it's different though because it's much harder to judge. If I coached a $25 NL player I am pretty sure I could give him awful advice from start to finish but present it convincingly and he'd think I was a great coach and poker genius.

orestto, I think if you were interested in tubasteve as a coach, he would probably provide you with graphs. I can't say why he hasn't in this thread, but I can say if I were him, I wouldn't be rushing to post graphs over some guy randomly talking shit about me.
You can see ~11,500 hands tuba played in Road to Robusto NL episode 8, which is about the same number of hands in the PTR link in the OP. And you can see all of his stats, not just a graph.

I don't think it's the case that guy is randomly talking shit about me. I certainly wouldn't take it like that if I were him. The first couple of sentences in the thread are:

Let me start off by saying I don't mean to be rude, I am not attacking anyone specifically. I know this is probably not the best first post to make here but I am just super curious what the answer to my question is and can't seem to find it so I'm going directly to the source and asking.

Thanks for pointing me to the video where tuba displays 11,5k hands. Unfortunately that sample size is equally meaningless as the PTR sample in the first post. Neither reflect tuba's abilities to any extent. Again, just to reiterate, I am not judging tubasteve's abilities in any way. Actually that's not true, up to this point I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt of being a solid player.

Unfortunately, like the OP, I just can't know for sure until I see results and I still don't understand why he wouldn't post them. If I were him, like you said, I would happily provide the info and see it as an opportunity to confirm my abilities and potentially pick up more clients.

alright i was going to wait until i had time to formulate a more detailed response, but in the effort of full disclosure i'm doing it now. the graph and stats of my most recent 275k hands are posted below and i have already emailed joe tall declaring my willingness to open my my database to a trusted person to confirm.

http://membervideos.deucescracked.com/tubasteve/5192/tuba%20275k%20hands%20stats.jpg

http://membervideos.deucescracked.com/tubasteve/5202/tubasteve%20275k%20hand%20graph.jpg


as you can see i had a pretty bad run at 100nl around hand 110k, starting in jan of 08 which was around when i started cutting volume heavily. i had just broken up with my only real girlfriend prior to that run, was taking anti-depressants, and was mass-tabling to simply try and fill my time with something i felt i could control. for the next like 90-100k hands i broke even other than rakeback and i just wasn't really able to play my A-game and got really dissatisfied with my life, so stopped playing for a while. i had started coaching for DC in the fall somewhere around hand 100k so i still had a few students at the time, and as demand for coaching went up, i was encouraged to up my rate from 75/hr to 90/hr and coaching started to take the role as my primary form of income.

poker has been quite a double edged sword for me throughout the last 5 years. i started playing for fun in the dorms, and eventually started playing online for rent money. i have paid about 95% of my own bills since graduating high school and poker was a godsend, keeping my parents out of debt and allowing me to live without handouts. on the other side of the coin, poker has kept me from graduating, given me disposable income that surely hasn't led me towards a more healthy lifestyle, and caused me to alienate an entire group of friends.

i started coaching just like everyone else, posting on 2p2 offering free lessons to the first few guys i coached. i got some positive feedback and started charging 30/hr and had a couple students, nothing major though. i had been coached by baluga and felt his teachings really helped my game, so i wanted to give back and make some passive income on the side. both of my parents are teachers as well so i guess you might say teaching is in my blood. (that sounds really corny in hindsight, but i always swore i'd never be a teacher and now look at me!)

one day i saw krantz post in the SSNL forum where 3-bet.net was looking for coaches, so I PMed him back. we exchanged a few messages (including a 100k hand graph of me beating 100nl for 4ptbb) and i suspect due to my connection with baluga (and a subsequent recommendation) i was hired as a 3-bet.net coach, and charged 60/hr IIRC. after a while, the video scene was starting to grow and i was offered to make vids for a site called donkit.com, but krantz convinced me to go with joe tall/entity/dd's original deucescracked, saying i wouldn't be disappointed. he was right.

i suspected a merger, to be honest, and when the new year rolled around i was enlisted to start shipping promo codes to 2p2 members for the launch of the new DC. since then i have been extremely active in the community. i have the most posts of anyone on the whole website, and probably the most strategy posts of anyone (although i am not sure). i was voted the best student performance for "the coaching tree" with baluga by the deucescracked members, and have received constant positive feedback for my videos and very little negative.

in fact otis is the first person ive heard say my videos suck or that his friends make fun of me or whatever. (btw cool story bro, hope your e-peen is feeling better.) in fact ive never even seen a negative review of my vids on 2p2, although im sure they exist. go search "road to robusto tubasteve" right now though, and see what people think.

my students and the dc community can decide for themselves whether or not my services and videos are worthwhile, and so far this thread is literally the only time anyone has called me out, and i'm done getting upset over the fact that i fucking prefer coaching and think im a better coach than player anyway. i was personally selected by baluga to make the coaching tree, i was personally selected by him to be a part of his private coaching staff, and i received instruction in his teaching style that have made me much more effective over the last year.

lets not also forget that i'm the one largely responsible for AMT, terp, and TheLoon even being coaches on this site (gave recommendations to the higher ups in all cases), and they are all quite valued contributors to the site specializing in very different subjects. i remember responding to hielko's posts when he was a 25nl player and how i thought the founders waited about 4 months too long to make him a coach. i know this website, i know the people that work here, the members, and i know how to direct people to the content they need to become winning players if i don't have the answers, or the time in a lesson to explain the answers.

i encourage my students to post hand histories and send me the links (although few actually do). i encourage my students to set goals for their play and study in order to instill a professional mindset about the game. i console students when they are tilting and direct them to resources that can help. i never tell a student what to do without giving at least 1-4 reasons why they should make the play. i reject students that i feel i cannot help, and when a student playing lower stakes wants coaching i inform them if i think my rates are unjustified given their level of skill and bankroll. i ran 9 successful group coaching programs where i made less than my individual hourly because ybother (another student of mine turned coach) and i packed so much info into each lesson that they run 3-4 hours sometimes instead of the promised 2.

you can argue that 90/lesson is steep, but its a free market. if you don't like it, don't pay for it. like i mentioned earlier, 90/hr was my rate when i was still grinding a lot, and to offer more value now i have made my lessons 1:15-1:30 minimum meaning i spend anywhere from 1:30-2:30 between prep and actual lesson time. if you're playing 25nl and a lesson from me can't save you 3-4 buyins or more over your poker career, then i'm sorry but i don't really know what to say. you should probalby move up.

my students are happy, the producers/owners are happy, and most of all, i am pretty happy with the choices i have made. do i wish i was crushing 400nl? of course. i really don't make all that much money a year, in fact i doubt many of you would be even remotely happy living on my income. i could certainly make more mass-tabling 50nl for 40 hours a week, but that simply isn't what i choose to do.

with my (admittedly minor) psychological problems (which joe tall can attest to), trying to finish school after 6 years of undergrad (thanks poker lol), and the fact that i simply don't give a shit about being a baller, being known as a world-renowned card player, or any of that status stuff, i'm perfectly content to finish out school, start looking for jobs, continue working with DC on coaching and videos, play poker from time to time live and online, and to help people become better players themselves so they can improve their own lives.

and maybe even more than that, i just want to live a normal life for while where i'm not isolated from society playing poker in the evenings rather than hanging with my friends that work 9-5 and have commitments. i want to be out of the house doing something productive during the day rather than being the bum waiting for everyone to come home from work so i have some ppl to hang with. i tried the life of a poker pro, it wasn't for me. i want to make a difference in the world somehow, and at least by coaching i am able to help a few people. ybother told me once after a lesson that he used poker profits (after breaking even at 25nl as a CR member, pre-coaching) to aid in buyin his family christmas presents and i honestly started to tear up afterwards. so if i haven't played much in the last two years, and you really want to persecute me for it despite the fact that i have proven coaching results and little to no negative feedback that i am aware of, go ahead, i've said my piece.

if anyone has any other questions you may feel free to post, email, pm, or skype me. my addresses via each medium are all pretty self-explanatory.

thanks again to those supporting me here, and to the entire DC community for giving me the opportunity to work for the best poker training site on the
web.

-steve

cliffsnotes: 2ptbb/100 winner over last 275k hands of 6-max, primarily at 100nl. haven't played much over the last two years due to personal problems, lack of motivation, tougher games OBV, increased coaching demand, low living expenses. have restructured my coaching to provide better value and students seem quite happy, even those at low stakes whom many of you think shouldn't be getting coaching and i have recommended to wait. witch hunt commences, and i come clean because i'm certainly no breathweapon or jason ho. post is probably very poorly written, but i don't care at this point.

Epic post IMO

There are some cognitive biases at work here. The big one I don't remember the name for, but it's basically if you spend a lot of money on something you are a lot more likely to think it's good, even if it's not good. There are a lot of studies confirming this tendency- it's just something your brain does to make you feel better, you're not cognizant of the fact that it's doing it.

I believe cognitive dissonance may be the one you're looking for.

Good post Steve. I think you vindicated yourself quite nicely with this post and graph. I was just saying that I think its important to show results, espicially if you have a bad PTR.

Edit: And for those who want to see Krantz's real results, look up pr1nnyraid on highstakesdb.com (HINT: its a very big positive number!)

I don't think it's the case that guy is randomly talking shit about me. I certainly wouldn't take it like that if I were him. The first couple of sentences in the thread are:

I was referring to otis_nixon.

Thanks for pointing me to the video where tuba displays 11,5k hands. Unfortunately that sample size is equally meaningless as the PTR sample in the first post. Neither reflect tuba's abilities to any extent. Again, just to reiterate, I am not judging tubasteve's abilities in any way. Actually that's not true, up to this point I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt of being a solid player.

Unfortunately, like the OP, I just can't know for sure until I see results and I still don't understand why he wouldn't post them. If I were him, like you said, I would happily provide the info and see it as an opportunity to confirm my abilities and potentially pick up more clients.

Agreed it wasn't a big sample, like the PTR stuff. IMO, asking for a graph if you're considering him as a coach is a far cry from expecting him to post them in response to some guy saying he sucked. Looks like he did anyway, but as far as I'm concerned responding to this kind of crap is very different than responding to someone genuinely interested. Phil Galfond is a coach, if I went to his site and said, 'he sucks and I guess he always has, prove me wrong' and he didn't immediately post a graph... let's just say I wouldn't be surprised.
It appears though that a few K hands of PTR and a trash talker is all it takes for some people to start doubting. Which unfortunately is the opposite of what I've been saying this whole thread - think for yourself.

Nevermind I found how to unsubscribe from this finally. Delete this post please.

Hello? I've asked before -- HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE from this topic? I get emails every minute about it, and I really don't care anymore about it.

Go to MYDC click on settings on the left bar scroll all the way down to find threads you're following.

Good post Steve, seriously.

in fact otis is the first person ive heard say my videos suck or that his friends make fun of me or whatever

Didn't say they suck suck, I haven't watched one of your vids in quite awhile. When I did though I didn't think you were very good- and after seeing your results I will stand by that, making 1 ptbb at .50/1 isn't what good players do, and I'm sure since then the games have gotten tougher. But I will say that for posting that graph and your results I give you a lot of respect. Posting a graph like that is a fucking manly thing to do, much manlier than if you were making 10 ptbb / 100.

And yeah my buddies that I've chatted with you about of course don't want to say anything critical because being mean on the internet is really kind of stressful. It takes up time and illogical fanboys that play 10 NL will get in your face and that's a waste of everyone's time. So I make these posts that I get nothing out of financially or socially and it makes a lot of people think I'm a dick, it's a net negative- so what's the point? For me it is that I think what I'm saying can really help people that need it and it's an interesting subject, so if some people hate me on here, whatever.

you can argue that 90/lesson is steep, but its a free market. if you don't like it, don't pay for it.

I agree with that but with the caveat that your results should be explained in more detail on your bio/sales page. From reading that I'd think you're beating 200 NL, talking about how you know "the keys to killing the small stakes", when you don't kill them. It's false advertising. That's the whole basic crux of the matter, and every other issue in the thread stems from that.

i just want to live a normal life for while where i'm not isolated from society playing poker in the evenings rather than hanging with my friends that work 9-5 and have commitments.

This is a false dichotomy though, big time. If you're good you can play in the days and make money, maybe a lower hourly but there are a lot of guys who do quite well without isolating themselves from society, come on. Even when you apparently did do that you only made 3c a hand. Assuming you could keep that rate up 12-tabling that's only $25 / hr.

And that's really all with me- you've made this post, that's all I have to say. Thread has mostly run its course IMO but I am always interested in talking about how to get better at poker and how to select a coach. I've spelled out how i think is best in pretty great detail here, and a lot of things I mentioned are not common knowledge or accepted and so I do think it can help some people.

I think that's filled a need- I've received quite a few PMs on here and on 2+2 saying thank you, that was helpful and asking questions from people who didn't want to go against DC orthodoxy or make any enemies but who agreed with me. The point of my posts here were not to rip on you personally, as I said before you just made a good example since someone started a thread about it.

Good luck, I really mean that.