Coaching Poker Forums

I have a couple of thoughts. First off, I think picking a coach just based on videos is a mistake. How do you know what the coach is saying in the video is good advice or bad? Your not really qualified to judge, since your the one trying to learn.

This is why I think results are so important. The results are the ONLY way you have of knowing that what the coach is saying is actually going to get you better. Because the coach has more successful results THAN you. If you pick someone who's a breakeven player results-wise but a great video producer, how do you know if your really learning anything. Maybe you THINK your learning something, but your actually just getting bad advice. And I wont name any names, but ive seen countless videos give terrible advice and sound so confident when giving the advice that you wouldnt know any better unless you were of a higher skill level than the video producer.

So results should be first, and then you should look at how the coach teaches (by watching his videos) and see if his teaching style matches your need.

Another thought is that its common to see students improve even after getting coaching from a bad coach. Why? Because usually people that seek coaching are actively working on their own game and are usually improving in skill level regardless of the lessons they recieve. Plus theres the possiblity they just ran hotter after the coaching sessions. So I wouldnt put too much stock in results of students. You dont know how much of those results came from the coach. The only thing you can know for sure is the coach's results.

As an example, my coach, FoxwoodsFiend, posted a graph showing $1.6mm in winnings in the last year and a half. Thats why I chose him ultimatelly, and yes I really like his videos too, but without the results I wouldnt have choosen him as a coach. So far I havent been dissapointed.

Edit: I also think there are good players that wouldnt make good coaches, but that doesnt mean the converse is true. I think being a good player and a good teacher both requisite for being a good coach. You need to be BOTH.

I have a couple of thoughts. First off, I think picking a coach just based on videos is a mistake. How do you know what the coach is saying in the video is good advice or bad? Your not really qualified to judge, since your the one trying to learn.

If u are begginer then yes i agree its not a good idea, but if You have some experience and u watched a ton of videos u can tell if the guy is making some sense or not, that said i probably also would need some proof of his winnings, although there are some coaches that i would not need to see their graph, but as default coach should show u that he is a winning player

spino1i: I agree totally.

I have a couple of thoughts. First off, I think picking a coach just based on videos is a mistake. How do you know what the coach is saying in the video is good advice or bad? Your not really qualified to judge, since your the one trying to learn.

I disagree obv., but that's just the way I'm going to pick a coach. I'm not watching videos to agree with whatever the coach says. I don't read the newspaper to agree with the journalist. I evaluate the information on my own. I decide if what a coach says in a video makes sense to me. I decide if his/her thought process is sound.

I think however you choose a coach, and even if it's Durrr or Phil Ivey, you shouldn't just believe what they say because they said it. Believe it because you think it through on your own and see the wisdom in what they say. There's no such thing as being too ignorant to think for yourself. Just because they are better at poker than you are doesn't mean they're always right.

I do agree using student results is unreliable. A coach can't control a student's ability to apply knowledge, or a student's tilt.

who gives a shit about PTR. If you don't wanna have a coach than don't take it. I think Dc is doing a great job in choosing a coach!!!


And forget PTR it's just a piss of ########. They track nothing right. And it's true if you wanna see how good a coach is look at the winnings of his students.

And if you have a doubt about the coaches here. Why do you subscribe?????

I've never had coaching but tubas vids made me a fortune. He knows how to beat the micros and he knows how to teach.

Looking at a 13k handsample isn't exactly a good idea. Especially when it contains obvious donking.

my bb/100 was positive until i donked off 15 buyins at 5nl to dc members!

You don't play poker and you don't win money at poker. This is undeniable. You most likely never made that much money at poker. So what makes you think you're qualified to teach anyone poker?

I know some of these guys that aren't very good and don't play poker have big followings here. The catch is that the people that love them all play NL $10 and as such don't know much about poker anyways.

You don't play poker and you don't win money at poker. This is undeniable. You most likely never made that much money at poker. So what makes you think you're qualified to teach anyone poker?

I know some of these guys that aren't very good and don't play poker have big followings here. The catch is that the people that love them all play NL $10 and as such don't know much about poker anyways.

I play and beat 400NL, would like to think that I know something about poker...

I play and beat 400NL, would like to think that I know something about poker...

What are you talking about? I'm talking about tubasteve not you.

I've played with you some, you're pretty good. Maybe you could coach tubasteve a little.

lots of hating in this topic, i love it.

What are you talking about? I'm talking about tubasteve not you.

I've played with you some, you're pretty good. Maybe you could coach tubasteve a little.

I'm saying that I also think that his vids are solid, and I'm not a 10NL player...

Steve,
I've watched your videos and read your posts. You obviously are dedicated to poker and I do like the videos I have seen. Of course, there will always be students/friends who will religiously defend (every sport/hobby is like this).

My ears(eyes) perked up when you have repeatedly said, "Many know that I don't play much any more." What does that mean? Why? You decided to ONLY coach? Some coaches say they make more money playing -- and that coaching actually pays them less (than their play).

Currently, I am neutral on this topic, but I think explaining why you keep saying this will help me a bit in my own understanding -- on whether the games are even beatable. That's my own personal fear: That I am just wasting my time watching videos and spending countless hours practicing. I kind of wonder if you made the smart choice and got out of the game.

I really wonder if I am wasting my time (my wife thinks so). Are the games beatable anymore? Are we also wasting our time trying to beat the game?

Please take this as a neutral (but difficult) curiosity. I'm not a lover or hater on this topic.
Thanks.

You don't play poker and you don't win money at poker. This is undeniable. You most likely never made that much money at poker. So what makes you think you're qualified to teach anyone poker?

I know some of these guys that aren't very good and don't play poker have big followings here. The catch is that the people that love them all play NL $10 and as such don't know much about poker anyways.

I made 14k euros at all stakes up to 200nl, and the 20-100nl part was mainly down to tuba & balugawhales vids, which are excellent.

I made 14k euros at all stakes up to 200nl, and the 25-100nl part was mainly down to tuba & balugawhales vids, which are excellent.

balugawhale actually wins at poker, there's no comparison here. it's like comparing jordan berkowitz to phil ivey. come on.

very few people that are good don't actually make any money playing. tubasteve is not in that group.

I'm saying that I also think that his vids are solid, and I'm not a 10NL player...

i mean what can you do? you say "oh his vids are great" i say his vids aren't good and many very good players i know agree with me (it's kind of a running joke we have.)

when it comes to objective evidence, we have all we need: he doesn't actually play poker.

i really think if you actually analyzed his vids you'd see some glaring issues.

that's really all i have to say about this. again, it's not personal, i don't know the guy i have never met the guy, i dont even know if he's really named steve. to add a little, here is a 2+2 post i made in the same sort of discussion where i talk a little about what i personally think the most efficient way to get better is....since i'm saying what not to do, here's a little of what i think you should do: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=18623077&postcount=7

I disagree obv., but that's just the way I'm going to pick a coach. I'm not watching videos to agree with whatever the coach says. I don't read the newspaper to agree with the journalist. I evaluate the information on my own. I decide if what a coach says in a video makes sense to me. I decide if his/her thought process is sound.

I think however you choose a coach, and even if it's Durrr or Phil Ivey, you shouldn't just believe what they say because they said it. Believe it because you think it through on your own and see the wisdom in what they say. There's no such thing as being too ignorant to think for yourself. Just because they are better at poker than you are doesn't mean they're always right.

I do agree using student results is unreliable. A coach can't control a student's ability to apply knowledge, or a student's tilt.

What im saying is its very hard for you to objectively analyize the coach's advice sometimes, espically for those in SSNL or the micros. Objectively analyzing a coach's advice requires you to have to correct poker mindset in whatever game your playing. Your fundamentals of what the most winning play is must be down pat.

So all im saying is maybe some can do it, but I think a lot are going to delude themselves into thinking that some coach is a genius when really he's giving out bad advice. Whereas even the biggest beginner in the world can infer a bigger winner or a higher stakes player is going to know his stuff better more often than not.

You don't play poker and you don't win money at poker. This is undeniable. You most likely never made that much money at poker. So what makes you think you're qualified to teach anyone poker?

I know some of these guys that aren't very good and don't play poker have big followings here. The catch is that the people that love them all play NL $10 and as such don't know much about poker anyways.

in Tuba's case, I know at the very least he learned from BalugaWhale who has had very good results at 5/10 and 10/20. And from the few Tuba videos I have seen, he seems to be reiterating a lot of Baluga's teachings, so in his case, even without any results, I still think he's a good coach. He knows the material extremelty well. But this is because a higher stakes player WITH results (Baluga) is effectively vouching for him. Thats important.

I cant speak for the other coaches though, and in general I think people should avoid break-even coaches or coaches that cant produce results.

Also you guys dont need to treat PTR like the bible. Sometimes PTR gets quite a bit off (I know in my case it is). Getting a screenshot of a graph or HEM results is FINE when looking at a coach's results.

He knows the material extremelty well.

I thin he's got some of the stuff right but that's hugely different from getting all the stuff right. Getting a lot of things wrong is enough to make you lose at poker. He gets enough things wrong that if he wanted to play me HU I'd definitely have a huge boner and I can't say that about many coaches here.

I cant speak for the other coaches though, and in general I think people should avoid break-even coaches or coaches that cant produce results.

Totally agree. There are so many videos out there that if no more holdem videos were made ever there would still be 5x enough material between all the coaching sites to help a new guy go from zero to hero. Seriously, all the sites could stop making videos forever and it wouldn't hurt anyone. Why watch a video from a guy that you don't know for sure is good?

Also you guys dont need to treat PTR like the bible. Sometimes PTR gets quite a bit off (I know in my case it is).

There are so many vids out there though, why watch bother with ones from guys that you can't be sure are winners at poker? Winning money at poker is a necessary but not sufficient condition to being a good coach (only exception is if you had some insane emotional issues where you tilt like a madman constantly, I don't think this is common, if it is then eat a handful of xanax.)

Not to belabor the point, but why watch a surfdoc vid if you haven't already watched every Phil Galfond vid twice? One guy is one of the great poker thinkers in the world and has won more money than anyone. The other guy is surfdoc.

BTW Your PTR is still pretty good though, isn't it (if you are who I think you are you are up $150k between the 2 sites. And you play HU, which PTR is a lot less accurate for as well in my experience, because it doesn't always capture these guys that come and bust 100 bbs in 5 hands.)

Also I still think even people like Tuba should play more, at the very least, I feel like people have to play some of the games in today's enviroment to know what sort of game the student faces when the student plays. Theoretical constructs only take you so far.

i wish I was up $150k on two sites lol. My sn is evil_ecstasy_x on ftp, and ptr has me up but not nearly as much as I actually am. Of course a bunch of high stakes PLO losses havent helped my PTR much (I dont coach PLO obv lol)

Im not saying you shouldnt get coached by sure winners, Im just saying PTR can get way off, whereas a graph is going to be more accurate and I dont think you have to worry about anyone faking any graphs. If you were really paranoid you could always teamviewer sweat the coach to make sure the graph was real.

I thin he's got some of the stuff right but that's hugely different from getting all the stuff right. Getting a lot of things wrong is enough to make you lose at poker. He gets enough things wrong that if he wanted to play me HU I'd definitely have a huge boner and I can't say that about many coaches here.

I mean you might be right because I dont think ive ever watched a complete video of Tuba's since I obv dont play SSNL or the micro's. Ill have to watch again, its probably a situation where he knows the theoretical stuff real well (from Baluga) but doesnt know how to put it into practice well. But I agree with your points and in general I think coaches should always be playing and not just coaching so that they are familiar with today's games.

Also I still think even people like Tuba should play more, at the very least, I feel like people have to play some of the games in today's enviroment to know what sort of game the student faces when the student plays. Theoretical constructs only take you so far.

I think this is an important point. I'm sure Tuba is a good coach for beginners. But for someone to charge $90/h when they do not currently play/beat the games is ridiculous. There are far too many over priced and substandard coaches floating about.

I mean you might be right because I dont think ive ever watched a complete video of Tuba's since I obv dont play SSNL or the micro's. Ill have to watch again, its probably a situation where he knows the theoretical stuff real well (from Baluga) but doesnt know how to put it into practice well. But I agree with your points and in general I think coaches should always be playing and not just coaching so that they are familiar with today's games.

A coach's watching students' videos / sweating them / analyzing their hands histories all day.

I think this is an important point. I'm sure Tuba is a good coach for beginners. But for someone to charge $90/h when they do not currently play/beat the games is ridiculous. There are far too many over priced and substandard coaches floating about.

i charge 90/lesson,all are a minimum 1:15, most are 1:30, many are longer, and most of those lessons also include an additional 30 minutes of my time reviewing videos for students before the lesson. my actual hourly rate is between 45-60/hr typically and that does not include time i spend talking to students about hands and responding to their forum posts.

the entire purpose for me giving so much time per lesson is so my students get a better value since i don't play much anymore. when i was grinding my rate was a flat 90/hr no matter what.

A coach's watching students' videos / sweating them / analyzing their hands histories all day.

Jason Ho watched poker videos/sweat people/analyze their hand histories all day. Did that mean he was good at poker?

Nope.

In poker it's easy to sound knowledgeable, especially to a beginner. I could say the most nonsense bullshit and give totally wrong advice couched in the right poker terms and the right knowledgeable tone and make any $50 NL player believe it, especially if they were paying me for coaching. They'd never know I was full of it. We can even test this, if someone wants to refer to me a player that hasn't read this thread for a coaching session I'll record it and give him totally idiotic advice but make it sound correct. Watch him think I'm awesome at poker. Hey, that sounds like a good DC series- half the vids with awful advice half with good advice and the viewer has to do the work to figure out which is which. It's not as easy as you think!

99% of people who are good at poker and not already independently wealthy make money at poker.