Coaching Poker Forums

Let me start off by saying I don't mean to be rude, I am not attacking anyone specifically. I know this is probably not the best first post to make here but I am just super curious what the answer to my question is and can't seem to find it so I'm going directly to the source and asking.

I'm going to use Tubasteve as an example because I watch many of his videos and find them very helpful. No offense to you Tuba I am in no way attempting to tarnish your reputation and good name I am simply just really curious.

With all the technology we have now a days looking up player history's via Sharkscope, Pokerprolabs, PTR and the many other sources out there I noticed some coaches do not appear to be winning players or even crushing the stakes they've made videos on. I do understand that many of these tracking sites only date back to 2008 and many many of the coaches out there made their big money during the poker boom,Party Poker LHE days, pre tracking days. I understand that coaching is a separate skill than actually playing. I also understand that some coaches may play on sites that are not tracked or may have a separate account that they play at their home stakes when NOT making videos and prefer not to out their handle. I don't understand however a PTR graph like this from a guy whose made many micro stake videos unless one or more of the above applies.

http://www.pokertableratings.com/fulltilt-player-search/penguino2112
Yes I know it's a ridiculous small sample size but that also concerns me.

In further research I found what appears to be Tubasteve's myspace page that indicates he's a 27 year old male who works as an accountant making 250k+. My thoughts initially were that this is a different guy until I seen poker in the top of the hobby list and a picture of the guy dressed as the ace of spades which led me to believe maybe it is him. If that was not you again I apologize. Are coaches typically not pro players? With how much poker has evolved throughout the years if some coaches don't play often modern day is there less value in their strategies or does this simply not apply to micros because they're micros and that is why these coaches focus on micros?

Again I want to apologize to Tubasteve for using him as the example. The only reason I chose to do a little research on this guy is because I've enjoyed watching his videos and feel I have gotten some benefit out of them but I always like to see the whole picture and not just whats currently in front of me. I feel this is a legitimate concern regarding poker coaching and strategy videos.

It's weird. I would like to get some coaching as well but the prices are ridiculous. 200$ / hour and up sheesh

I think your question is valid. How does DC vet its coaches? But why didn't you ask that?

I think singling Tubasteve out and using a SN that he obv doesn't play on, as well as some random myspace page (pretty sure this isn't him as school, major, age all seem off) as "evidence" of your point is a pretty sh*tty way to go about it.

Interesting topic.

Another DC coach with larger sample; http://www.pokertableratings.com/fulltilt-player-search/ambtndplyr

His hourly coaching rate is $85 but he seems to be a loosing player on nl200 over 75k. I know that's not enough of sample but anyway, I think it's good to point out, especially with all the coaching scams that have been recently.

And Phoinix who's breakeven over 300k hands on FTP (won't out his sn since I don't know if he wants to).

And other DC coaches who don't want to provide graphs for some strange reasons.

personally i dont care much about coaches winnings, I mean i learned so much from them, and those from i learned the most they just have to make money, their poker knowlage is outstanding, ofcourse i check out some PTR stats but just out of curiosity, and after i watched whole begginer section and half of Intermediate – Advanced section i just know from who i can learn the most and i dont need to know if they are making money couse they just have to

There have been several threads in which the DC founders and Exec Producers have commented on the coach selection process and what is involved. You can be sure that Jay, Joe, and the rest of the crew are making damn sure that anyone they pick to be a DC coach is worthy. Who they choose is a reflection on them and the DC community. It's not something taken lightly around here.

That said, it is your responsibility to do a bit of research when selecting a potential coach. Watch their videos, find out if their thought process and way of explaining things seems to work well with how you think about things. Don't rely on PTR. It's not as accurate as you think, and some of the coaches don't want to out themselves. I don't think it's inappropriate to ask for a HEM graph or their bb/100 over various stakes. If you don't feel comfortable with someone because they refuse to give you tangible evidence that they're crushing whatever stakes they play, find someone else.

Coaching is an important part of a poker player's development, but it is a big investment. You wouldn't buy a car without making sure it's exactly the one you want. The same should be true of choosing a coach.

personally i dont care much about coaches winnings, I mean i learned so much from them, and those from i learned the most they just have to make money, their poker knowlage is outstanding, ofcourse i check out some PTR stats but just out of curiosity, and after i watched whole begginer section and half of Intermediate – Advanced section i just know from who i can learn the most and i dont need to know if they are making money couse they just have to

It isn't the same thing to watch their videos and pay a good chunk of money when you think they crush todays game when they don't. If you want to watch their videos, go for it, but I expect that most people wouldn't buy coaching from the breakeven coaches if they knew that they are breakeven players which most students probably don't.

There have been several threads in which the DC founders and Exec Producers have commented on the coach selection process and what is involved. You can be sure that Jay, Joe, and the rest of the crew are making damn sure that anyone they pick to be a DC coach is worthy. Who they choose is a reflection on them and the DC community. It's not something taken lightly around here.

That said, it is your responsibility to do a bit of research when selecting a potential coach. Watch their videos, find out if their thought process and way of explaining things seems to work well with how you think about things. Don't rely on PTR. It's not as accurate as you think, and some of the coaches don't want to out themselves. I don't think it's inappropriate to ask for a HEM graph or their bb/100 over various stakes. If you don't feel comfortable with someone because they refuse to give you tangible evidence that they're crushing whatever stakes they play, find someone else.

Coaching is an important part of a poker player's development, but it is a big investment. You wouldn't buy a car without making sure it's exactly the one you want. The same should be true of choosing a coach.

I see where you are going but if a coach is breakeven or slightly loosing player at his stake, do you think people would still buy coaching from him IF they knew that he was brekeven/loosing player? I believe they wouldn't.

And I think coaches who don't provide SN or graphs shouldn't be allowed to coach on DC. Like breathweapon on 2p2 who claimed he was a 4ptbb winner on nl400 over 500k hands and it turned out he wasn't winning a shit. I would be pretty pissed if I payed him because I wouldn't ever pay him if I knew that he was a loosing player or breakeven.

I think that breakeven/loosing coaches steals from students because they don't say the truth because if they knew the coaches wouldn't get shit.

And I think coaches who don't provide SN or graphs shouldn't be allowed to coach on DC.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but other people get to decide who can and can't be a coach on DC. You do get to decide who you let coach you, however.

The nice thing about a community like DC is that you know the coaches have gone through a process. By choosing someone as a coach, Jay, Joe, etc are letting you know that you can learn a lot about the game from this particular person, and that they vouch for their abilities. That is a lot more credible than some random dude on 2+2 offering coaching.

I think your question is valid. How does DC vet its coaches? But why didn't you ask that?

I think singling Tubasteve out and using a SN that he obv doesn't play on, as well as some random myspace page (pretty sure this isn't him as school, major, age all seem off) as "evidence" of your point is a pretty sh*tty way to go about it.

I didn't ask how DC vet it's coaches because there is a thread on that I already read. I apologize for singling out Tubasteve and I said the myspace is just a speculation I apologize if I'm wrong. What do you mean he obv doesn't play that screen name it's the account he plays in almost all his live play micro videos.

He's openly stated that he dosen't play that often anymore which is fine but if my speculation is true and he has a 250k career and doesn't play to often did he personally ever really CRUSH micro NL? It was my assumption to believe that most people making strat videos that are published on a coaching site have already crushed or are crushing stakes they're making several videos on and have moved on to higher stakes. It appears this may not be the case with some of the coaches?

OP; It's for sure a smart thing to always check out a coach and do some research before picking someone. There are certainly poker coaches around that are mainly just trying to make some easy money because they suck at poker (recent schandals highlight this). That said, I'm very sure Tubasteve isn't one of them and he's certainly qualified to teach people how to beat micro stakes poker. It's not a secret he isn't playing a lot of poker anymore, and that PTR sample actually isn't painting a bad picture since he's beating 10NL, 25NL and 50NL at a decent rate.

As for the other coaches named in this thread, don't know to much about them; but you certainly don't become an DC coach easily, so I would trust that they know what they are talking about. And also, just because someone is breaking even at 200NL or something over a big sample, it doesn't mean they can't teach micro stakes players.

Finally; if a coach is not willing to show you some results, and you are not sure of his abilities; just find another coach.

This is just such a murky situation. On one hand, I have full faith in the higher ups at DC to maintain high standards. DC wants to be the best and does a good job. Wilt has said before that coaches have been removed from DC on his advice and I feel that kind of thing is very important.

There is also the argument that being a good winning player does not necessarily equate to being a good coach, and that to be a good coach you do not necessarily have to be playing a tonne. I personally think that because the games have evolved so much over the past year or two that the majority of coaches should be putting in significant volume in order to keep up to touch with the games. Coaches charge a very high rate for an hour to 2 hours of work and I feel they should be able to justify those rates with results for the most part. And by for the most part I mean players like Krantz or whitelime would obviously get the benefit of the doubt because of what they have achieved in poker.

Like I said, its murky water. HEM graphs and stats can be modified ridiculously easily. Lots of coaches don't out their SNs and even when they do PTR isn't necessarily reliable (though it is certainly getting more reliable and over the large sample of recent hands is pretty solid).

At the end of the day, people have to do their homework before parting with substantial money. Get in touch with their peers here at DC and 2p2, get graphs, talk to past students, whatever.

In an ideal world I think coaches should be "tested" by the executive producers here at DC. Higher stakes coaches should occasionally sweat a coaching session or sweat the coach in question playing their regular game or whatever. There is no reason in the world why coaches shouldn't make their SNs and graphs etc. available to people like whitelime, Krantz and Wilt. As has been suggested before, coaches should maybe record a brief video of a few of their coaching sessions and have them available on their coaching profiles too.

But there are obvious practical, financial and time related problems with implementing a vetting system like that for coaches. However, this is becoming more and more of an issue in the coaching community because of stuff like breathweapon/jason ho so DC will have to come up with a satisfactory method of appeasing the potential coaching clients that visit here if they wish to remain at the peak of coaching sites, which of course they do.

OP; It's for sure a smart thing to always check out a coach and do some research before picking someone. There are certainly poker coaches around that are mainly just trying to make some easy money because they suck at poker (recent schandals highlight this). That said, I'm very sure Tubasteve isn't one of them and he's certainly qualified to teach people how to beat micro stakes poker. It's not a secret he isn't playing a lot of poker anymore, and that PTR sample actually isn't painting a bad picture since he's beating 10NL, 25NL and 50NL at a decent rate.

As for the other coaches named in this thread, don't know to much about them; but you certainly don't become an DC coach easily, so I would trust that they know what they are talking about. And also, just because someone is breaking even at 200NL or something over a big sample, it doesn't mean they can't teach micro stakes players.

Finally; if a coach is not willing to show you some results, and you are not sure of his abilities; just find another coach.

I concur, I really do enjoy the strat videos on this site and I think Tubasteve has made some great ones! I suppose my vision of a poker coach was a bit off to begin with. I was just surprised when I was looking at some of the coaches profiles that most were pretty vague as far as their poker successes and current ambitions the profiles seemed a bit outdated. I thought a poker coach would do everything they can to show their successes and promote themselves to new clients but I suppose you have to go a little deeper for that info such as a direct inquiry with a specific coach.

I am a very skeptical person when it comes to spending money. As poker players we know we're all out for each others money but the same goes for everyone and everything else in this world.

It's entirely possible that coaches are not playing the screen-names they produce videos with on a regular basis.

The most you can say is, 13k hands appear to show Tuba losing 1.7bb/100. Fine. Tuba has said in vids I've watched that he's scaled back the amount he's playing.

Your Sharkscope/Pokerprolabs/PTR stuff is bollocks. Anyone can get Durrrr or Isildur1 or Ivey or whoever to play for 20k hands and fake a winning record. I'd actually trust a slightly losing coach that didn't hide that stuff but impressed me otherwise more than someone who boasted about their record. For example (used because he's the only guy my limited knowledge allows me to speak of), I know Dogishead has had a tough year. Would I hire him as a coach? HELL YEAH.

If what you are saying is, check your coach, I would agree. What I would come back at you with is, if you can't test what they are teaching you in detail, you are either not concentrating hard enough, not smart enough, or getting bad coaching.

A fake-able online database is no solution to lack of concentration or lack knowledge. Deciding to trust that would just mean that (some, dishonest) people could hire a superstar to fake their results.

my bb/100 was positive until i donked off 15 buyins at 5nl to dc members!

Tubasteeve is NOT a scam.

period