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This is interesting to me. It never occurred to me before, but the rake I'm paying is pretty brutal... and I DO have a paying job... so I guess I could replenish my bankroll and not feel too bad about it if I am only depositing what I have lost in rake (after what I already get back in rakeback...)...

So I supplement my rakeback myself out of my own pocket to make it 100% rakeback... and let my results on the table speak for themselves in whether I can take shots higher etc.

Hmm... I'm'a think on that some more.

This is interesting to me. It never occurred to me before, but the rake I'm paying is pretty brutal... and I DO have a paying job... so I guess I could replenish my bankroll and not feel too bad about it if I am only depositing what I have lost in rake (after what I already get back in rakeback...)...

So I supplement my rakeback myself out of my own pocket to make it 100% rakeback... and let my results on the table speak for themselves in whether I can take shots higher etc.

Hmm... I'm'a think on that some more.

I mean dont get me wrong, itll get tougher when you move up. But in my opinion its better to play tougher games and improve faster than play zillions of micro hands where your already beating your opponents handidly but losing your profit to the rake. Plus if you run into problems in the bigger games you can hire a coach (although I recommend taking money outside your bankroll to pay for coaching), since its your opponents outplaying you, not the pokersite. If your in the micro's and your already beating your opponents up pretty bad, it can be tougher for you or a coach to figure out how to beat them up even harder.

I mean dont get me wrong, itll get tougher when you move up. But in my opinion its better to play tougher games and improve faster than play zillions of micro hands where your already beating your opponents handidly but losing your profit to the rake. Plus if you run into problems in the bigger games you can hire a coach (although I recommend taking money outside your bankroll to pay for coaching), since its your opponents outplaying you, not the pokersite. If your in the micro's and your already beating your opponents up pretty bad, it can be tougher for you or a coach to figure out how to beat them up even harder.

Yeah that's just what I was thinking. I'm a massive bankroll nit and don't want to move up too soon, but so much of my profit is going on rake...but if I bite the bullet and supplement my rakeback... I can take my shots still satisfying my bankroll management nittyness... and yep I have cash ready for coaching but don't want to pull the trigger on that until I'm up a couple of stakes from where I am... so that could happen sooner (maybe) too.

Well, the thing with Russ compared to me is he's always had plenty of time to grind micros. Me, not so much. I have a full time job amongst other things to take care of. I mean he only deposited 50 twice and made it all the way to high stakes. But he even admitted that he was playing in optimal conditions. I'm playing in sub optimal conditions. We all need to take shots

I think its unrealistic for a lot of us to expect to get out of the micros. It would probably take me years to reach the levels I want to be at and then I risk burnout on top of that.

For me its comfortable to take shots at live 1/2 poker. I've always done alright there. I can afford it every once in a while and then add it to my online bankroll.

Still, playing the micros has been an epic learning experience for me.

I think its unrealistic to think that you will get out of the micros quickly ash but not unrealistic to think you can make it out. Honing your skills is the point of playing the micros. Part of that is game selection. I've been donking around the micros since Nov. 11 when I made my final deposit and was going to quit poker if I busted.

I took on PLO at the micros and managed to turn 67 into 280. I took time off over break, came back and sucked. Built the role back up and took a shot and sucked. Got pissed and decided to quit PLO and go back to NL. After a week of being back in NL I lost even more money but I started playing HUSNGs and started winning. I developed an edge by just studying it nonstop in a game where variance doesn't play anywhere near as big of a part as it does in PLO.

Since going back to NL, my FT account has been stagnant. It stand at 203. However, I started playing with 30 bucks on Bodog that I had left over from a deposit I made trying to learn HUPLO. I started playing NL HU cash and SNGs there. Today 1 month later, my account is at 330 there. I've been practicing game selection and my ROI for HUSNGs is at a cool 20%. I deposited 30 on Pokerstars. Today the account is at 100. 55% roi for 2s. It saw 134 before I tilted a quite a few BI away at the 5 dollar shootouts.

Throughout this whole thing, I realized how important it is to develop a niche for what you play, how you play, when you play, and who you play. I realized I don't need to get into an ego war with myself and play everybody regardless of their skill. I realized that I'm cool with being sort of a bumhunter and sort of not. On Pokerstars and FT, I take on everyone. On Bodog, I hunt. $300 in profit in 1 months work from playing 5s and then moving up to the 10s at $190 (still played 5s, and 6s). Ran hot, started game selecting like a mofo and continued slaughtering.

There's a time and a place for challenging yourself to get better at the game. If you want to move up though, it would probably be wise to start practicing game selection. If I see a fish sitting down at a HU table, I won't even hesitate to sit with him. If I see a winner, I back off. No point. i'll play good opponents when I have to. Until then, I'll just feast on weak players.

Oh and don't think once you move up in stakes you should only play those stakes and never look back. Keep playing the stakes you crushed. You might see it as a waste of time but if there aren't any good games where you have a significant edge, a game at lower stakes where you edge is monsterous will be more profitable.

Cliffnotes:

game selection has taken me on a massive upswing. I suggest you do the same.

Yeah. I see where you're coming from. I always wanted to be a prodigy but the reality is I have to put in an ass load of work to get good. Still struggle with wanting to be something else. Its hard not to look around and say hey "why can't I bink a tournament"?

But you're right. Game selection is huge. There is a time and a place to challenge yourself and thats when you have a large bankroll. You don't and neither do I. Its not worth the mental strain to spew buy ins or try to out play regs right now.

If I'm good I'd be winning and if I'm not winning I'm just not working hard enough.

Think about your edge against regulars. Small. Think about their edge against you. Small. Who has the edge, don't know. Game select for people you do have an edge against.

For just HUSNG as an example, If someone has a 3% ROI, they between 55% and 60% of games because there is 5% rake. So he is a winner. Say you have an ROI of 8%, you are better than him but your edge on him might not overcome the rake and you are setting yourself up for a lot of variance when you have edges that thin. Now lets say someone has a -7% ROI, they win around 48%. You win like 58% of games but you also take on some regulars and some players better than you. You edge is pretty big. Mix that in with you taking in a healthy dosage of poker studying and your actual edge in the game might be somewhere around 65%.

That's pretty huge.

Of course, I just said regular and that could imply that they are a winner. There are tons of bad regulars. There are guys who have played over 4k games and have graphs that are a straight line down. They have mistakes and they are probably never going to figure them out. Once you figure out this "regulars" flaws, you are going to own him. Don't confuse reg with winner you should stay away from. Stay away from pretty good winning regs while your building your roll and hunt the bad regs and tourists.

Who knows? Maybe with all the added confidence from slicing through these opponents and having a starting point for identifying and destroying leaks, you will be able to start doing that with good winning players and you are on your way to becoming what you want to be. Elite.

What it also builds is momentum and confidence! What those bad regs don't have is either since they are just stuck robot grinding.

Thanks for that. I can always game select better.

But how do you game select HUSNG's? With cash games starting a table usually attracts the fish.

My friend has been urging me to play HUSNG's. He says they are super soft and you learn a ton. I think I will work it into my rotation. I think I am just going to rotate games depending on how I feel that day. I have been jumping between micro NL, Micro PLO, MTT's and now I'll throw in HUSNG's

Ash there is always a lot of inspiring stuff floating around on poker forums, but this takes it a step further. It's a great read and a good story. I'm not one to write or share my personal situation with others, mostly because I don't think people want to her, but I am in a very similar situation. In short, hope to see you at the top man.

I can't game select very well on Stars and FT, I just sit randoms most of the time. Sometimes I game select on Stars by looking at their nationality. I know its lame but for the most part if you know what countries(its no joke to say that some countries suck as a whole) you can game select that way.

On Bodog, I either sit first and let anyone who is smart enough to game select stay away from me (after looking at my graph even a guy with a 12% ROI might want to just avoid me) or I sharkscope them before hand because there is low traffic so it is easy to pick off a target who sits first.

I can't game select very well on Stars and FT, I just sit randoms most of the time. Sometimes I game select on Stars by looking at their nationality. I know its lame but for the most part if you know what countries(its no joke to say that some countries suck as a whole) you can game select that way.

On Bodog, I either sit first and let anyone who is smart enough to game select stay away from me (after looking at my graph even a guy with a 12% ROI might want to just avoid me) or I sharkscope them before hand because there is low traffic so it is easy to pick off a target who sits first.

I've noticed Romanians seem to spew a lot. Italians seem meh but otherwise haven't noticed much else

Ash there is always a lot of inspiring stuff floating around on poker forums, but this takes it a step further. It's a great read and a good story. I'm not one to write or share my personal situation with others, mostly because I don't think people want to her, but I am in a very similar situation. In short, hope to see you at the top man.

Thanks nice to hear! Its really embarrassing to re-read this stuff sometimes but i feel like if you don't get it out then you won't know if how you're feeling is right or wrong. I hope if whenever I say something that doesn't make sense in these threads that at the very least someone will point it out to me, whether in a negative or positive way. It burns the ego to hear but its good for your long term self.

What better place than a forum where you're still somewhat anonymous? Everyone has been really supportive so far. The stage is set. Now I just need to turn it around.

Still feel really foolish sometimes thinking back but then you come across something like this:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=1825403

and you feel a little bit better. That is what I consider inspiring! Everyone owes it to themselves to read and re-read that.

Yea I definitely agree that embarrassment is a big part of it. In my case I have been wanting to start a blog for the longest, but can't wrap my head around cataloguing the struggles and perceived failures of an early in his career micro grinder. The thing that is very hard to remember is that these perceived failures are not failures, but in fact learning experiences as long as you allow yourself to look at them that way. And i purposely say early in my career because that's how we must look at it.

If things went smooth how would we ever truly learn the game. Let's take these lumps and lessons while the stakes are relatively inconsequential. Imagine the toll that it might take on us if we flew through micros and small stakes only to get the harsh reality of poker when we reach midstakes and think we could do it for a living. It might be too detrimental to ever come back.

We need DC to lean on, we need small Skype groups to build and learn, we need mentors, and I think something that is very important, which I don't currently have-and Ash I am quite envious of you for having someone like Russ- is a successful poker friend or 2 that you are especially close to that you can really talk poker to.

It's difficult when we have these aspirations of playing for a living and it seems that we can't even grind out a winning day, let alone a winning week, month or even year, at 10nl. But if we put our head down and have a true passion, not a dream, but a desire with a plan, it can happen.

In response to the link, and particularly the strategy discussion toward the end regarding playing the other players and not your own hand, a great exercise is one suggested sometime ago in CardPlayer where you drop to a level that is insignificant monetarily, even if it be 2nl, and play one table with a post-it over your seat and play blind. If you don't know your cards, you have no other option but to play the other players tendencies and you position.

GL all that are in our shoes.

WOW. Great thread guys, very interesting and also applicable to my own current situation.
Its a long ladder we're all climbling, with many snakes along the way to pull us back down.
Theres no easy routes, just a long hard slog!
Again great reading, see you all at the top!

Wayne

really an awesome post dude, wel written. If you don't succeed in poker you can always become an writer

True

Should be a "must read article" to the new incomers.

Great Post Man... It def puts things into perspective

Great post, re-read it a few times now and my biggest leak is ego.

nice post!)

+1. For thread and songs!!!

If things went smooth how would we ever truly learn the game. Let's take these lumps and lessons while the stakes are relatively inconsequential. Imagine the toll that it might take on us if we flew through micros and small stakes only to get the harsh reality of poker when we reach midstakes and think we could do it for a living. It might be too detrimental to ever come back.

I think this is almost certainly true. Progress is almost never smooth in any endeavour, for example I know that a lot musicians find they improve in sudden leaps but have to spend a long time being patient in between when there seems to be no progress. It's just in poker these things are even worse as variance can send you on a massive losing streak even when your getting better.

Great music btw!

Great post. Thanks!

Nice article, excellent points

Great job! This article inspired me

VNP