Tommy Angelo : Call or Fold? Stay or Quit? Page 1 of 2

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Call or Fold? Stay or Quit?

title: Call or Fold? Stay or Quit?

from feed: Tommy Angelo

published Aug 9, 2008 4:44pm

Here’s a decision I made in the $10-10-20 no-limit hold’em game at Lucky Chances in the spring, when the minimum buy-in was $2,000. The lineup — what we lovingly call The Breakfast Club — was playing tight and tough, as it so often does. Inevitably, the cards slice deep cuts into some of the stacks, which causes blood to flow, and that gets the chips moving, sometimes, depending on whose nuts get cracked.

When this hand came up, the game was two hours old, and there had been no major wounds. The two biggest pots of the day had been in the $1000-2000 range, and neither of them went to showdown. On this hand, I was under the gun. I opened for $80 and only the button called. The pot was $190. On the flop, I bet $200 and he called. On the turn, I bet $500 and he called. At this point the pot was about $1600. On the river, I checked, and he went all-in for $1600. (I had him covered.)

At this point, his hand was polarized. I knew he either had me beat, or he didn’t. If I called, I would be getting 2-1 on my money which meant that if he had me beat twice as often as he didn’t, then it didn’t matter what I did. And as best as I could figure it, within the image of reality that exists only in my mind, which happens to be the only version of reality I have access to, that was how it was; the EV of calling was the same as the EV of folding.

So, what to do?

Well, that’s an easy one: move to an outer shell of parameters and weigh the decision from there.

My opponent was a player who often plays pretty snug for long stretches, and then, when he plays a big all-in pot, he will sometimes play somewhere between reckless and rukus for a while. And it doesn’t matter if he wins the big pot or loses it. He tends to get spunky either way. And when the spunkiness comes over him, his spunk can cause a few others to spunk it up, and now we’ve got a game. And let’s just say for the sake of parameter thinning that I thought I could rely on myself to be equally steady, win or lose. So now we have determined that after looking at the meta-game, the decision was simple.  Call and maybe rev up the game, or fold and keep it the same.

I asked myself: Do I feel like playing? And what kind of game do I feel like playing in? My choices were:

Fold and continue playing in a tough-tight game. (I like tough-tight games during those times when I like that kind of game. It just depends.)

Fold and quit a tough-tight game. (Never a bad idea.)

Call and play in a loose-ish game ahead $2400. (Sometimes I keep playing because I’m ahead, and independent of that, sometimes I keep playing because the game got looser.)

Call and quit a loose-ish game stuck $2400. (Sometimes I quit because I’m stuck, and independent of that, sometimes I quit because the game got looser.)

This was a difficult decision for me at the time, and I took way longer than usual on it.  And then a big grin crept over me inside when I realized that the reason I couldn’t attach to one of the options was because I was unattached to all of them. So I pulled out my most trusted scale tipper, my protector, my net. Remember when I said I thought I could count on myself to stay steady if I called this hand, win or lose? Well, that’s not actually true. Usually I can. But sometimes I can’t. And I never really know for sure which way it’s going to be. And even when I am perfectly unflustered by a big pot, it nonetheless increases the probability a little bit that the next big pot might knock me off balance.

I decided to let the first blood spill on someone else’s hand. I decided to wait for a +EV spot to play an all-in pot. And I realized I liked this tough-tight game right now, just the way it is. So I folded and posted my blind.

Rating: 4.3/5 Stars (4 total)


jcl
Deuce High
16 posts
Joined 05/08

"I knew he either had me beat, or he didn’t."

O Rly?

Posted Aug 10, 2008 7:46am

tehmac
Deuce High
72 posts
Joined 01/08

Nice article.

"I knew he either had me beat, or he didn’t."

O Rly?



Ya rly, because his hand was polarised to either the nuts or air.

Posted Aug 10, 2008 12:03pm

RedJoker
Deuce High
3 posts
Joined 01/08

If you call you get to see his hand which gives you information.

Posted Aug 10, 2008 2:54pm

jcl
Deuce High
16 posts
Joined 05/08

Nice article.



Ya rly, because his hand was polarised to either the nuts or air.



im pretty sure he either has u beat or he doesnt, irrespective of whether or not his range is polarised or not...

dw im just being a smart ass

Posted Aug 10, 2008 4:16pm

dnuts
Deuce High
4 posts
Joined 02/08

Knew the fold was coming before I read the end.

Posted Aug 10, 2008 4:29pm

DJ Sensei
Exec Producer
Quad Deuces
1145 posts
Joined 10/07

I think I get more tilted by folding and being shown a bluff than by calling and losing in spots like these. I also dislike it when the game is tight and tough. So I probably would have called.

Posted Aug 11, 2008 6:14am

betwitnothin
Deuce High
4 posts
Joined 04/08

call

Posted Aug 13, 2008 7:20pm

chomp
Deuce High
71 posts
Joined 03/08

A great read.

Posted Aug 13, 2008 7:38pm

Dead-Inside
Deuce High
34 posts
Joined 05/08

I think I get more tilted by folding and being shown a bluff than by calling and losing in spots like these. I also dislike it when the game is tight and tough. So I probably would have called.



This. If it's a cointoss, just call.

Posted Aug 20, 2008 2:06pm

clowntable
Pair of Deuces
245 posts
Joined 02/08

I think I get more tilted by folding and being shown a bluff than by calling and losing in spots like these. I also dislike it when the game is tight and tough. So I probably would have called.


You could also fold and quit.

Posted Aug 21, 2008 9:02pm

Slowlearner
Deuce High
8 posts
Joined 06/08

If the ev of calling and folding are the same, isn't your opponent owning you from a game theory point of view and no matter what you do you lose?

Posted Aug 26, 2008 1:45pm

Tommy Angelo
Deuce High
62 posts
Joined 10/07

If the ev of calling and folding are the same, isn't your opponent owning you from a game theory point of view and no matter what you do you lose?



I don't know. Let's looky...

Is there such a thing as actual EV of a betting option that exists as a precise number that is utterly independent of everyone's estimates of the EV? On this hand, I did not know the EV of my options. (Which is always the case for me.) So all I had to go on was my estimate. And my estimate was that the EV of calling was zero, and that the EV of folding was zero. I do know for certain that there is a significant margin of error in my estimates for plays like this one. I do not now much of the margin of error is due to 1) being owned 2) not being very good at estimating EV 3) the naturally occurring gray area that accompanies EV estimations, especially ones that are close to zero.

Here's your question again:

If the ev of calling and folding are the same, isn't your opponent owning you from a game theory point of view and no matter what you do you lose?



My answer to question one: I don't know.

My answer to question two: If the EV of both options is zero, then no one wins or loses no matter what I do, right?

Tommy

Posted Aug 26, 2008 9:05pm

Cblanks
Pair of Deuces
101 posts
Joined 03/08

Tommy....
Why do you prefer playing in a tight tough game over a loose one?

Posted Aug 26, 2008 11:01pm

Tommy Angelo
Deuce High
62 posts
Joined 10/07

Tommy....
Why do you prefer playing in a tight tough game over a loose one?



I didn't mean to say that I prefer a tight tough game over a loose one. What I meant to say was that sometimes I enjoy a tight tough game.

Posted Aug 27, 2008 12:40am