Micro Stakes Online NL Poker Forums

Wow, talk about the worse card in the deck!:sick:


I am not comfortable in this spot with the nut draw. I think betting about 1/3 of the pot keeps them at bay enough to get to the river. There is very slight value.

I\'m very interested on how to play in this situation. I\'m learning just like you.

Yeah I agree with Jim. Sethypooh is right but this deep you can\'t really kill their implied odds unless you want to open for 40 bb

Another good way to do this however is through pot control, that means checking this turn and seeing if you can call if he bets. You could consider making a big move here in some games I guess but this limit makes me think he\'d stack off here lighter than he should so it\'s a waste to try to get him to fold an ace.

-DeathDonkey

(this may be totally standard but I haven\'t played a lot of NL in about 18 months so I am trying to get back into it slowly)

Don\'t have the full HH because I\'m at work, but I remember the hand well. So I\'m playing at a smaller site with .25/.50 blinds but a max buy-in is $100 so I bought in for the max and have stolen some blinds and made one hand to get to $110. The other 2 players in the hand also have a little more than me so the effective stack size is $110. Two players fold and the button limps in and this could honestly be just about any two reasonable cards since she plays very loose and kind of spastic (making big donk bets with low pkt pairs and calling down extremely light or with UI AK on flop and turn). the SB seems like a weak tighty, so he completes the blind which almost certainly means a weak hand.

I make it $2 to go out of the BB with KsKc. They both call.

Flop: 2d4s7s

SB checks, I bet $6, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: As

pot= $18
I have $101 behind and she has me covered.
what do I do here?<br><br>Post edited by: themightyjim2k, at: 2007/08/01 10:27

sethypooh21 wrote:

Ick.

The only thing I will say is raise more PF. KK is nice, but I don\'t think is a hand you want to play 200+bb deep oop multiway. A lot of the advice I\'m getting from various boards and videos is the importance of cutting down on villains\' implied odds when you are raising, and especially 3-betting, out of the blinds.

I wasn\'t 3-betting. The button limped in and the SB completed. I probably could have raised to $3, but I don\'t think it would have made a large difference in implied odds since we are 200bb deep like you are saying. Any more than $3 and they are probably just mucking pf, and as bad as the button was playing I think the hand had to much value to just try to shut them out for $1.

sethypooh21 wrote:

I know you weren\'t 3-betting, but I think my point still stands in that I\'d rather play this HU or win just the blinds then play a slightly bloated pot, 3-way, oop, with a one pair hand.

to be honest I was really surprised when the SB called as he was rarely calling pf raises, and he was very honest with his hands (ie I limp therefore I have crap). I assumed when I raised that the button would call and we would get HU.

so DD, you would suggest checking the turn and calling a reasonable bet. Since I have the nut flush draw what size bet is reasonable to call 1/2 of the pot or less ($9 or less)? If I see the river and don\'t make my flush or spike a third K what is my plan?

sethypooh21 wrote:

Problem with the \"call a reasonable bet\" line is that your implied odds suck. If you hit your flush, you\'ve got to hope that he turned a baby flush and will pay you off.

I *think* that a 1/3-1/2 pot blocking bet is probably better as you are getting close to the right pot odds yourself on that bet and don\'t have to make up a ton on the river if/when you hit to show a profit. Obviously, if he makes a big raise, that sucks and you have to pitch it, but how often does that happen with this villain on this board?

this is exactly the line i took. I bet 1/2 the pot $9, she raised to $45, and told me in the chat box that she really wanted me to call.

I thought for about 15 seconds and mucked. I didn\'t know whether my bet on the turn actually caused her to raise and blow me out of the hand, but I guess just chalk it up to one of those things.

Hrm

That big a bet, and I think he/she is committed so you might indeed get paid off on the river. That said, it\'s still too much, as you\'re somewhere between 4.5-1 and 6-1 against, and only getting ~3.8-1 assuming the stacks go in on a good river card. If she had made it about $40 to go it\'s VERY close, it seems...

Sucks the way it played out, but honestly, I have to believe if you can get your opponent to continually invest 45 to win 27, somewhere, somehow, you\'ll come out ahead.

yeah I ended up getting $30 off of her 3 hands later when she raised TT from the SB and I defended with Q8s from the BB and flopped top two. The turn was an A so with an AQ8xx board she still called a big turn raise and a half pot river bet with pkt TT. AKA she was a donkey who either had a big hand or made a nice move on me, but ended up giving all of it back.<br><br>Post edited by: themightyjim2k, at: 2007/08/01 21:28

C dee C wrote:

i\'d check the turn and call a reasonable bet and probably checkfold the river if he bets again. i know this is a weak-tight line but you are really going to be sick if you bet this turn and get popped. that card is either an action killer or action maker and if your hand is best there aren\'t really a whole lot of cards that can fall off to hurt you and you\'re not likely to get a call from something like middle pair/no spade and if your hand is behind you have lots of outs to improve.

at the time this was my exact thought. If I\'m ahead very few hands are calling here. And if I\'m behind pretty much every hand is raising. So I kind of felt liking betting was lose lose. But at the same time if I check I am just inviting to get bluffed by any hand, and I honestly can\'t call a decent turn and river bet unless I improve.

It seems like people are kind of split between a 1/3-1/2 pot blocking bet, and checking the turn and calling a smallish bet. hmmmm I guess I still really don\'t know what to do.

i\'d check the turn and call a reasonable bet and probably checkfold the river if he bets again. i know this is a weak-tight line but you are really going to be sick if you bet this turn and get popped. that card is either an action killer or action maker and if your hand is best there aren\'t really a whole lot of cards that can fall off to hurt you and you\'re not likely to get a call from something like middle pair/no spade and if your hand is behind you have lots of outs to improve.

Ick.

The only thing I will say is raise more PF. KK is nice, but I don\'t think is a hand you want to play 200+bb deep oop multiway. A lot of the advice I\'m getting from various boards and videos is the importance of cutting down on villains\' implied odds when you are raising, and especially 3-betting, out of the blinds.

I know you weren\'t 3-betting, but I think my point still stands in that I\'d rather play this HU or win just the blinds then play a slightly bloated pot, 3-way, oop, with a one pair hand.

Problem with the \"call a reasonable bet\" line is that your implied odds suck. If you hit your flush, you\'ve got to hope that he turned a baby flush and will pay you off.

I *think* that a 1/3-1/2 pot blocking bet is probably better as you are getting close to the right pot odds yourself on that bet and don\'t have to make up a ton on the river if/when you hit to show a profit. Obviously, if he makes a big raise, that sucks and you have to pitch it, but how often does that happen with this villain on this board?

themightyjim2k wrote:

sethypooh21 wrote:

Problem with the \"call a reasonable bet\" line is that your implied odds suck. If you hit your flush, you\'ve got to hope that he turned a baby flush and will pay you off.

I *think* that a 1/3-1/2 pot blocking bet is probably better as you are getting close to the right pot odds yourself on that bet and don\'t have to make up a ton on the river if/when you hit to show a profit. Obviously, if he makes a big raise, that sucks and you have to pitch it, but how often does that happen with this villain on this board?

this is exactly the line i took. I bet 1/2 the pot $9, she raised to $45, and told me in the chat box that she really wanted me to call.

I thought for about 15 seconds and mucked. I didn\'t know whether my bet on the turn actually caused her to raise and blow me out of the hand, but I guess just chalk it up to one of those things.

Hrm

That big a bet, and I think he/she is committed so you might indeed get paid off on the river. That said, it\'s still too much, as you\'re somewhere between 4.5-1 and 6-1 against, and only getting ~3.8-1 assuming the stacks go in on a good river card. If she had made it about $40 to go it\'s VERY close, it seems...

Sucks the way it played out, but honestly, I have to believe if you can get your opponent to continually invest 45 to win 27, somewhere, somehow, you\'ll come out ahead.

I agree with the check turn sentiments. There are two factors here:

- The minor factor is that he either has a worse hand with very few outs to catch up, or he has a better hand and you have a chance to catch up. This means hand protection is unnecessary, as giving free cards is not too dangerous. It also means bet-folding is not as appealing, as you\'ll frequently be priced into calling the raise anyway. You could make a much stronger case for betting red kings here, as they are much more likely to be beaten by the river card, and if raised, they almost certainly have 0 or 1 out(s) to improve.

- The major factor here is that there\'s simply very little value in betting the turn. If he flopped a weaker hand, such as top pair, he\'ll usually just fold here, as the As is scariest card in the deck for him. The better play is to check, communicating \"I\'m scared of the ace,\" and hoping to either pick off a bluff on the turn, or get some value on the river if he checks the turn.


I\'m ok with your preflop raise sizing. Bad players will lose too much money with weak one pair hands, so it\'s not a disaster to invite a call, even if it results in a 3-way pot. Traditional NL theory says you\'d rather not get called, as you\'ll be out of position with deep stacks, but in practice, you\'ll make a lot of money from those 87s hands, because he\'ll put way too much money in when he flops a single pair or a weak draw such as a gutshot.<br><br>Post edited by: sthief09, at: 2007/09/02 07:48

tough situation. not much to add here. sometimes against a bluffy opponent i\'ll pot it there instead of check, but against moderate opponents i like to bet about 1/2 pot. keep in mind what you do when you hit that flush - if you always pot it then, you should pot it more now. but not a lot more because you won\'t have the flush often.

fold to raise and be happy about it.