Micro Stakes Online NL Poker Forums

I play mostly zoom 25NL and taking some shots at zoom 50NL and I have a bit of a meh problem that I could use some help with...

I don't like 3betting anything below JJ+ and AQ+ and I don't like calling 3bets.

The reason is that most regulars at my stakes are complete monkeys post-flop that don't have an idea why they are doing what they are doing. So I want to take keep my advantage post-flop and not play in inflated pots where my skill edge decreases because of stacks.

Now the two main problems that I have is that my 3bet% is low so if they are looking at their HUD they might pick up on that. Similarly I get 3bet quite a lot which is probably because I'm folding 75-85% to 3bets so they must have figured out they auto profit.

How do I best develop a counter strategy without having to go to much into light 3betting / 4bet wars, etc.?

You can't really develop a counter strategy in a vacuum that will work against every player you 3bet or that 3bets you. Your strategy should be a direct result of how they react to being 3bet and their own 3betting strategy.

Simple example: You hold AJo OTB, folds to you, nit in the BB that hasn't made a 3bet in 90+ hands wakes up and raises you. Easy fold IMO.

Now change the villain in the BB: Same hand, same situation, except this time he is a very active and aggressive over the top 3bettor with stats around 12% over 100+. You check his position stats and see he likes to do most of his 3betting from the blinds and OTB. Folding here is probably too nitty. That leaves you with 4betting, or calling. Obviously more can be said about this position, to keep it simple, I think IP you can call and play a flop profitably in this spot.

Every hand in poker is a different situation. You could start forming a basic strategy by changing the variables in those two scenarios (your position, villain's position, your hand, villain's tendencies, ect.) and run through your thoughts about how you would respond. This is how I'd go about trying to develop an overall strategy.

Also, do the same with some hands you've played and post pre-flop spots on the forums where you've hand trouble.

Now the two main problems that I have is that my 3bet% is low so if they are looking at their HUD they might pick up on that. Similarly I get 3bet quite a lot which is probably because I'm folding 75-85% to 3bets so they must have figured out they auto profit.

How do I best develop a counter strategy without having to go to much into light 3betting / 4bet wars, etc.?

Like CDA pointed out, first, you will have to figure out who is monkey 3betting you. Once you figure that out, you can develop a strategy vs them when you are 1. IP, and 2. OOP. It all starts with your pre-flop opening range. For example, if you open 50% of hands and only play back with 4.2% of your hands (JJ+/AQ), you are folding (50-4.2)/50=92% of your hands to 3bets. I can basically 3bet you with ATC and profit 92% of the time. You can make a few adjustments to make it unprofitable for me to 3bet you with ATC. You can open less hands and you can defend with a wider range. You can also min-raise, but I won't get into that here.

Let's say, instead of opening 50%, you tighten up to 33% of hands, and instead of defending 4.2% of hands, you defend with 11% of hands to 3bets. Now, when I 3bet you, you only fold (33-11)/33=67% of the time, and 1 out of 3 times I'm getting played back at. That makes it much less profitable for me to monkey 3bet you.

Here's an example of being IP. You can basically do the same thing and construct your OOP range for playing back at 3bets.

Hero is OTB and normally opens 65% of hands. But, an aggro, light-3betting reg [24/22 3bet 10% over 200 hands] is in the blinds, so hero adjusts by opening 33%, and the aggro reg 3bets hero to 10bb. Hero decides to defend with 11% of hands using Pokerstove, and of that 11%, hero 4bets a portion and flats a portion.

Hero decides to construct his range like this:
-4bet and call a shove:77-QQ
-4bet and fold to shove:ATo-AJo, KQo, KTs-KJs, QTs-QJs
-Flat the 3bet and play post flop: KK+, A9s-AQs, AQo

Basically, play around with Pokerstove and develop your own range. For example, maybe you tighten up to 25% for a few orbits instead of 33%. Or maybe you are not comfortable with 11%, so you play back with 8% instead. Maybe you you 4bet KK+ instead of flatting, etc.

Anyways, hope this helps. I got these ideas mostly from the donkr articles:
http://en.donkr.com/Articles/optimal-3-bet-4-bet-5-bet-strategies-in-nl-holdem-6-max---part-1-329

That article is great.

The article is the nuts.

Yes that article is very good theory but is only working when players adjust, keep that in mind before you start shoving lighter for value.

Op,
If you think you might be exploited because of your tight stats and high F3B you can do the following things:
*Start 3betting more from the BTN vs CO, SB vs BTN and BB vs BTN. Those positions in general have the highest fold equity. Your 3bet stat will increase and 90% of the players will not even see that your 3bet is generated from those positions so you will get some more action with your big hands.
*To lower your F3B the best way is to start calling with hands that play well IP vs SB/BB resteals. You can start calling with suited broadways for example versus players with a 10% 3bet from the blinds and 4bet/fold some hands that are to bad to call with.

This is just an idea and you should work out the hands you want to 3bet/4bet or call with. I'm just giving you examples how you can manipulate your stats without making big mistakes without going into details too much.

http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/17-Mid-Stakes-Shorthanded-NL/537641-how-do-you-construct-your
Here's a good post in relation to this topic in the midsakes forums might be helpful

Thanks for the replies. They all make sense and VMs response is awesome!

That being said, I don't know if this was clear from my original post but my biggest problem lies in that the regulars at these stakes are... well not very good. They see what they want to see. If they think someone is playing back at them - they will go overboard and start 4bet bluffing and 3barrel bluffing, raise / cr cbets, etc.. This is okay when we are at the top of our range, this is something else if we have A9s and he's shoving the river and we have top pair, weak kicker. Granted we can call and a good % of the time we are good, but we're basically playing a guessing game and playing high variance games. People complain in the forums about variance this, variance that, and that's because of how these games now play. I've seen these pokerstars pros at the table and good regs and they all play basically a very nitty style as a result. Well I don't want to play either of those ways. I like to play normal pots, do some hand reading and capitalise on peoples' post-flop mistakes but at the same time, I don't want my range to be face up and I dont want regs to look at their HUD and go 3bet for auto profit. So I need to do something to get my figures to look somewhat decent, whilst still steering away from getting too involved in 3bet pots and 4betting. Does this make any sense? I hope it does

I've been thinking (btw I play 6max) and some of the adjustments I came up with is to increase 3bet stat I could:
- 3bet UTG with KQs, AJ-Ts, TT-88 <- not sure what people think of this?
- 3bet 23s - 67s on the button? <- not sure what people think of that either....
- 3bet 22-66 in the blinds? <- again questionable?
- VM said 3bet more in the blinds, but all regulars are starting to 3bet a lot in the blinds so not sure if people would start playing back more?

These would basically be adding "bluffs" to my range but hands that I can still play well enough post-flop and are somewhat disguised to my mind.

With regards to the 3bet calling, I really struggle with this. I mean even if someone 3bets like 12% or more from the blinds, if he has cbet stats for flop and turn that are both around 70 I don't feel good about calling with AJ and think I'd rather fold and 4bet top of my range.

- Only thing I can think of is to start set mining with all pocket pairs to get my 3bet calling stat up? But not sure if we're not starting to leak money?

Well that's about as far as I came with developing a strategy. Hopefully you guys will have some pointers for me

I've been thinking (btw I play 6max) and some of the adjustments I came up with is to increase 3bet stat I could:
- 3bet UTG with KQs, AJ-Ts, TT-88 <- not sure what people think of this?

Do you mean vs an UTG raiser? I would flat all of those hands, maybe even fold some of them if there is an aggressive 3 bettor on my left. I wouldn't 3 bet them for value against most players, barring some read.

- 3bet 23s - 67s on the button? <- not sure what people think of that either....

I assume you mean against a CO open. Could be alright against certain players. I usually prefer hands that have better equity when called, and have blockers to a 4 bet range (KJ, AT, etc).

- 3bet 22-66 in the blinds? <- again questionable?

Ok, if villain opens a lot and a) folds a ton to a 3 bet, or b) 4 bet bluffs too often and folds to a shove

With regards to the 3bet calling, I really struggle with this. I mean even if someone 3bets like 12% or more from the blinds, if he has cbet stats for flop and turn that are both around 70 I don't feel good about calling with AJ and think I'd rather fold and 4bet top of my range.

If someone is 3 betting you a lot, first be sure they are actually 3 betting you light. Sometimes they may just be running hot. Start by tightening your opening range slightly. When oop, 4 bet bluff more. I find that at the micros, players will 3 bet light but don't adjust their stack off range to compensate. So some one 3 betting 12% is probably folding 75% of the time, if his stack off range is JJ+/AK. Call with hands that can bluff catch post flop, and can flop equity with which to semibluff. Suited broadways, like AQs, AJs, KQs work well in this regard. Hands like AJo, AQo, and KJ are fine to call with in position, but oop it will usually be better to either 4 bet bluff with them, or fold.

- Only thing I can think of is to start set mining with all pocket pairs to get my 3bet calling stat up? But not sure if we're not starting to leak money?

Getting your 3 bet calling stat up isn't something you need to concern yourself with. You can setmine in 3 bet pots, but that depends on stack depths and the player(s) you are up against.

Well that's about as far as I came with developing a strategy. Hopefully you guys will have some pointers for me

Good luck.

Alright maybe we should have a bit of a general strategic discussion about these stakes first. In todays zoom games, most regulars (and I'm talking about the 18/15 range to the 28/22 range) are quite effectively utilising their HUD stats, they have studied the pre-flop concepts and from all the videos that they have watched, they have somewhat of an understanding on how to exploit and how to counter being exploited. When you look at their stats. they are 3betting 6-12%, they are folding to 3bets 50%-60%, they 4bet for value and as bluffs fairly balanced, they fold to cbets 50%, they cbet 70% to 100% and they barrel 70% to 100% and bet the river for thin value. Most people seem to think that players at these stakes are all fish, easily beatible, etc. etc. However I tend to disagree. I think there is a fair chunk of DC regs at these stakes (I've recognised some avatars and names) who know very well what they are doing and are unable to break out of these stakes. So we've got to give some respect where respect is due.

I'm not saying that the stakes are unbeatble. Far from it. I think most money can be earned post-flop. Because a lot of player's pre-flop strategy doesn't allow them to play a lot post-flop. So to some extend this is where they are very inexperienced, have calling station tendencies and generally don't know very well what to do, or have a reason for doing what they are doing. Now that same issue exists in 3bet pots which, I think, is a frigging pain because your in bigger pots against someone that's going to be overly aggressive doing whatever he has seen in videos. For example, the other week I had AA in the SB and a reg UTG opens. I 3bet him since he has a low fold to 3bet and he 4bets. I thought jamming looked too strong and given my view on these type of players, I thought it would be more profitable to just call and let him donate me the money. Flop comes 622. I check villain shoves all in I snap call he has 23s. Say what?... 23s UTG opening range / 4bet range of a tight regular.

So having sort of recognised this fps "trend" amongst these type of players, I think it would be really good to change strategy where I re-develop my range to hands that I can either bet or call down with for value in 3bet pots, or otherwise fold on the flop. Obviously I don't think that 3betting and calling 3bets with KJo against this type of player is a particularly good idea.

I wonder if others have similar experiences at these stakes? Particularly what they see these regs 3bet/4bet and call 3bet/4bets with?

With regards to the 3bet calling, I really struggle with this. I mean even if someone 3bets like 12% or more from the blinds, if he has cbet stats for flop and turn that are both around 70 I don't feel good about calling with AJ and think I'd rather fold and 4bet top of my range.

Why? If he 3bets 12 % and then brls lots, he bluffs a lot, and you can therefore easily play AJo ip. Honestly, If I 2,5x bu and a reg with 12% 3bet overall, which is probably something about 18 bb vs bu, I probably:
4bet call AQo+, 77+,
flat AJo, ATo, KQ, KJ, KTs, QJs, QTs, K9s, JTs, J9s, T9s, T8s, 98s, A9s, A8s, A5s A4s, 66, 55 + AA and KK about 50% of the time
then 4bet fold some A9o, KTo, A6s type hands.

Of course adjust, if someone 3bets light but does not 5bet jam a wider range, then flat AQ ip and 4bet bluff more. If you feel villain is really good, tighten up some. I mean, even if he is completely depolarized an 18% range still is wider then the range I described for defendiing vs 3bets, plus you are ip and get around 2:1. AJ ip vs that range is just the nuts, you dominate more then 50% of his aces, even more of his jacks, plus you are likely to get brled on the boards you hit. Just stove it, against an 18% range you have 53% equity with AJo, ip, getting 2:1 ! And that is against a depolarized 3betrange, most ppl will sometimes flat some of those middling hands and 3bet some garbage.

Identifiy your villains with unbalanced ranges.

Villain A: 3bets a bunch in a particular seat. Folds to 4bets
Counter: 4bet with weak Ax

Villain B: 3bets a bunch in a particular seat, Jams over 4bets
Counter: 4bet with 88+, AJ+

Villain C: 3bets almost never in a particular seat. 4betting tendency unknown.
Counter: FOLD

Villain D: Folds to 3bets a bunch
Counter: 3bet weak Ax.Kx. Flat with monsters

Villain E: Seems to 3bet a balanced range. Not generally spewwy postflop.
Counter: Fold or call. He's balanced, so you can fold the marginal hands.

Of course you can exploit players postflop. You can also exploit them preflop.

OP, if you are going to start 3betting light, which I definitely think you should do, start doing it OTB vs CO. This, imo, is the most profitable, and easiest 3bet spot to learn. You said your 3bet range is a static 4.2% [JJ+/AQ+]. BTN vs CO, open that range up to anywhere from 8% to 12% or so. Two strategies I like to use when constructing my light 3bet range are:

1. Hands with blockers Ax, Kx
2. The top of my folding range (got this from Grindcore's Thin Red Line Episode 1)

Here is an example of a 9% 3bet range based on your current 3bet range of JJ+/AQ+, and adding in some 3bet bluffs.

JJ+/AQ+
A8o-A9o
K9o, K6s-K8s
Q7s-Q8s
J7s-J8s

Again, play around with Pokerstove, and you should be able to construct an optimal range vs your opponents. Know your opponents' tendencies, and know what your goals are when 3betting light. These are some of my goals:

-Get villain to fold pre-flop
-Get villain to call and fold to my cbet
-Get villain to 4bet bluff so I can 5bet bluff shove
-Get villain to spaz out

Add some junk with your premium hands. Find players you can 3bet crazily and make your range premium and junk only to increase your 3bet%.

The reason is that most regulars at my stakes are complete monkeys post-flop that don't have an idea why they are doing what they are doing. So I want to take keep my advantage post-flop and not play in inflated pots where my skill edge decreases because of stacks.

Would you rather have a 10% skill edge in a $3 pot or a 7% skill edge in a $9 pot?

Also them folding to cbets when they call too weak of a range to your 3bets is part of your skill edge. By flatting good 3betting hands you're giving up skill edge.