Micro Stakes Online NL Poker Forums

I was saying that flatting QQ in this spot is ok but I'm not a huge fan of flatting it every time. Your 4bet will be very low and your 4bets will be very easy to read for observant opponents.

This!

Your 4 bet range is probably pretty unbalanced. Also, if you are only called or face a shove by AA/KK, sometimes AK when you 4 bet, then isnt it a GREAT opportunity to start 4 bet bluffing vs wide 3 bet ranges?

If you start balancing your range, some players will start shoving wider vs you, then your QQ hand will probably become much more profitable 4 bet calling.

Yes but this starts with opening much more then 14%. This is way too tight and only invites value 3bets from opponents. Because we open very tight it's unlikely people are 3bet bluffing us often and therefore 4bet bluffing is suicide.

@Steppin Razor Rereading my reply to you this morning, it seems a little tense, lol. Sorry. I appreciate the feedback and I think your question is extremely pertinent. So here is a question back.
If some people are 3betting a 9% polarized range and some are 3betting a 9% depolarized range and you have no way to tell which is which. How should you proceed? In other words, how are you adjusting to this problem. Bearing in mind some of my comments above.

No worries.
To answer your question, as long as the polarized range includes AK calling off, you can 4bet v both. That is not to say it's equally +EV, that would depend on the situation, just that QQ is +EV v AA, KK, AK.

I have run a filter on hands where I have 4 bet QQ. Over a 100000 hand sample I am down 927bb/100 in these situations. In most cases I have folded out the 3 better and in the three times I have been called I have been facing AA, KK, and AK. Compare that to the times where I have flatted. In these occasions I am up over 1000bb/100. This doesn't seem the right way to get value?

You've 4bet QQ 100,000 times? How many times have you flatted it?


I think some of your problem is related to the posts above. 18/14/4% 3bet is pretty nitty, so your 4bets are going to get respected. Do you alter the size of your 4bets? If you aren't 4betting QQ, what are you 4betting?

Hey the 100000 hands is my total database for ZOOM poker not simply QQ etc. Sorry if i was misleading. Your post got me thinking about my opening range a lot more closely and the stats that are represented in my database. To be honest they felt wrong to me and maybe you can help me figure out what is going on and if it is significant at all. Here's the thing. I really did not feel that nitty. At least not in the sense that I am only opening a 14% range (AA-22,AKo-AJo,KQo-KJo,QJo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs). When I look at heat maps for hands I have raised from different positions I have opened far more hands than this stat indicates. Does this simply mean that although I am opening a variety of hands I am just not doing it often, ie consistently enough? So for instance, while I am sometimes raising QT from the button I am not always opening QT from the button so because the raising range is weighted down to say one raise out of 10 - eventually I end up looking like I am raising 14%. This makes sense right?

Yeah I think this is totally what I am doing. I just filtered for hands that should be in my unopened opening range for BTN and I am open folding in many occasions. I think I thought the gradually nittier looking stats was a function of playing Zoom or something. Many of the regs I have the most stats on have very similar stat ranges. This is likely so for VPIP,PFR and 3bet. I guess I need to work on opening up my game significantly if this is right. I little scary in the midst of a 13 BI downswing.

I think I am reasonably good at learning poker theory and pretty fricking horrible at implementing poker theory while playing. Especially when things start to go bad. I default to nitty, horribleness and things quickly go from bad to worse. Any suggestions on correcting this, or any of the things I said above? Thanks for the help folks, this is quickly turning from Hand analysis into Poker therapy.

Hey the 100000 hands is my total database for ZOOM poker not simply QQ etc. Sorry if i was misleading.

The number of times you've 4bet QQ is what is relevant when looking at bb/100.

Your post got me thinking about my opening range a lot more closely and the stats that are represented in my database. To be honest they felt wrong to me and maybe you can help me figure out what is going on and if it is significant at all. Here's the thing. I really did not feel that nitty. At least not in the sense that I am only opening a 14% range (AA-22,AKo-AJo,KQo-KJo,QJo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs). When I look at heat maps for hands I have raised from different positions I have opened far more hands than this stat indicates. Does this simply mean that although I am opening a variety of hands I am just not doing it often, ie consistently enough? So for instance, while I am sometimes raising QT from the button I am not always opening QT from the button so because the raising range is weighted down to say one raise out of 10 - eventually I end up looking like I am raising 14%. This makes sense right?

It does, although it is also possible that you are substituting hands for the std 14% range - instead of QT you raise J7s for ex. You should not try to be consistent in your opening ranges in that your ranges should change depending on players and situations, but you should have a default range that you 'always' play and just deviate by taking hands out or putting them into that static range. IOW, if you are sometimes folding QT that's okay if you have intentionally taken QT out for a specific reason. If you fold it because sometimes you feel like it's a good hand and sometimes you feel like it's bad, that is not okay.

Yeah I think this is totally what I am doing. I just filtered for hands that should be in my unopened opening range for BTN and I am open folding in many occasions. I think I thought the gradually nittier looking stats was a function of playing Zoom or something. Many of the regs I have the most stats on have very similar stat ranges. This is likely so for VPIP,PFR and 3bet. I guess I need to work on opening up my game significantly if this is right. I little scary in the midst of a 13 BI downswing.

I live in the States so I haven't played zoom, but I used to play Rush on FT. It is true there as well that many regs tightened up, but not the ones I considered to be decent players (and I did get to see them come around over and over). If you want to voir dire my Rush play (because I'm no poker ace), one of the K4AD episodes was me playing 2 tables of Rush (season 4 I think).

I think and UTG open range of AA-66, AKs-A5s, AKo-ATo, KQs, KQo, QJs, and JTs is tightish. I don't have stove on this computer, so I can't look up what percentage that would be but it shouldn't be horrendous.
In Zoom, you should be opening CO/BTN if it folds to you with nearly ATC, You can pitch the real trash, but open the other stuff. Chances are people have already quick folded. If you opened everything down to J4s and maybe down to 86o, that might be a good start.

That said, I do think there is some room to flat more than you would in reg cash because people are opening more because people are auto-folding. It makes stuff like KTs a good hand to sometimes flat depending on the situation.

Awesome stuff thanks. I played this morning with my opening range for each position displayed on my other monitor. I concentrated on consistently playing my opening range. I had a very solid session. I went back and looked at my downswing hands some more. Honestly, I was playing atrociously. Super monkeytilt spewtard plays all over the place. I was running into some pretty bad coolers but I made it 3x worse than it had to be. Gonna work on my fundamentals a lot over the next while. Plus I'm cutting back on tables slightly. Thanks for the help all. I'll probably post some more hands soon.

np. And remember, you can always drop down in stakes to mess around with stuff and not cost yourself too much.



BTW, on your second hand, I hope you took a note. You were provided some pertinent info there.

Yes, Yes I did. Then I went back and edited out the swear words and insults.

Just began watching the Moving beyond Microstakes series and I reference this thread in the comments. I realized after rereading that I have implemented many of the suggestions made by Steppin Razor (including moving down several steps below my usual stake) in my game and they a) halted my downswing b) helped build up my confidence and c) stimulated a fundamental restructuring in my study/play habits which I am hoping to help with the new series. So big thanks Steppin Razor.