Micro Stakes Online NL Poker Forums

[quote]Its all dependent on the opponent, positions, stack sizes, boards and textures, etc. But I would say in most float situations, I'd still prefer not to raise the flop if he doesn't 2 barrel bluff a lot simply because we can play close to perfect against him OTT. Sure, he may occassionally hit and be "freerolling", but if we raise, we lose money to his value range. And if we floated instead, he can bet his strong hands OTT and let us fold. I'd prefer a raise OTF if he was the type to cbet a lot and barrel the turn card at a really good number (40-60%) with both value hands and bluffs. In this scenario, we're going to get owned a lot if we wait til the turn, we have less information than if he played straightforward, so I'd rather bluff his flop bet where we know a majority of his hands are bluffs.

i actually still really disagree with you and still think that raising is better than floating versus this guy. i think you are underestimating how good it is to make our opponent fold out there equity share.
EG say they open CO with AJ and we call OTB with XX they cbet on T9xr we call. On this flop they still have reasonable equity to improve OTT. Any Q,8 A or J they will not be giving up turn with. However if we raise the flop all the equity they have is taken from them. What about all the boards where they cbet a pair and c/c turn, or when they cbet and pick up a draw and c/c the turn.......

Ok so if we have little equity, such as two over cards we bluff raise the flop and if he comes over the top we can fold without a worry. Now say we actually have some equity in the hand like a flush draw or OESD, would you prefer a raise here of a float? Thinking in terms of a single raised pot if we were to raise and he shoved we get pushed off our equity, or have to get it in as a dog. But given there is less money behind on the turn in a 3 bet pot would we just be better of jamming the flop with our draws?

I might be missing the mathematical aspect here, ie our shove has to get x amount of folds to make it profitable, but im not sure how to work that out..

nice job...well written post

Ok so if we have little equity, such as two over cards we bluff raise the flop and if he comes over the top we can fold without a worry. Now say we actually have some equity in the hand like a flush draw or OESD, would you prefer a raise here of a float? Thinking in terms of a single raised pot if we were to raise and he shoved we get pushed off our equity, or have to get it in as a dog. But given there is less money behind on the turn in a 3 bet pot would we just be better of jamming the flop with our draws?

I might be missing the mathematical aspect here, ie our shove has to get x amount of folds to make it profitable, but im not sure how to work that out..

in general i like to raise when i have lots of equity(for value) and when i have little equity(as a bluff). calling is better with some equity.. if i just had a flush draw say like 56s on JTx board then calling will probs be best. if i had AKs then raising will generally be better because i have tons more equity.

The other thing to consider is whether we actually have any fold equity. say on a KJxss board we have A9s and a regular cbets into us and one other opponet. there range here is generally very strong so although we have an over, FD and backdoor straight draw it is very unlikely we have any FE to make it profitable.
hope this helps

Yeah it does, ties in to the thread i started about bluff raising draws vs floating/bluff raising the turn. Thanks.

One thing I get caught up with is maybe getting trouble when deciding whether to polarize/depolarize my range based on sample size. Sometimes I mess up and depolarize vs someone who over a short sample have folded to everything and concurrently mis-tag them.

If they keep folding to your 3-bets then just continue until they tell you otherwise. Why fix what aint broken?

Any Q,8 A or J they will not be giving up turn with.

If they are barrelling good cards, then they would not be a candidate to float against. So yeah, obviously that would be a bad play. However, I suggested floating against opponents that like to cbet bluff/give up a ton. I run into a lot of these opponents who will frequently check back hands when they should barrel (eg, they turn a BDFD with a broadway overcard). Also, if we did decide to float against a guy that doesn't barrel as a bluff and never slowplays, and he bets when an A comes out, then we should c/f since we know he has a pair. If he checks when X comes out, then we can bluff the river pretty often (or check down depending on our showdown value) since he is so unlikely to have a hand.

In general, I don't like floating T9X boards anyway because of how much equity a ton of hands have against us and the fact that a lot of air decides to not cbet these boards. Most of their bluffs are gutshots or better and we end up c/c when they have a ton of equity rather than just outs to a pair.
Just keep in mind what their postflop leaks are. This whole debate started because of saying that someone who calls OOP to a 3 bet is bad, which is not necessarilly true. I just wanted to try to keep your mind open that there are plenty of situations where flatting OOP is the best play.

tagging this for later. this is really good

This whole debate started because of saying that someone who calls OOP to a 3 bet is bad, which is not necessarilly true. I just wanted to try to keep your mind open that there are plenty of situations where flatting OOP is the best play.

Can we elaborate on this?

for example, someone 3bets a polarized range bu vs your co (say AK, TT+, lots of bluffs) and has a 3bet% of say 12 - 15, so really bluff heavy, and you you have a good hand, that does not want to 4bet / get in, say suited broadway, or AQo, If said player also has a light 5bet range from those light 3bets, but is not awayre enough, to just 3bet AQ or lower pairs in order to jam over 5 bets, then you might 4bet call AQ for example and against someone who flats 4bets, but only jams premiums, 4bet folding hands such as AJo, ATo, KQo, or even AQo might be better. But for example AJs I think flating is the best play most of the time

@ anaconda: nice thread, what about that guide to defending 3bets?

+1 for the 3 bet defence.

./follow

http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/17-Mid-Stakes-Shorthanded-NL/topics/537641-how-do-you-construct-your?#post_4729051

From this post you can also figure out how to construct your 3bet range in situations where villain is going to call with a relevant frequency.

hey guys
im glad so many of you enjoyed reading my post and hopefully all took something from it.
in the last month i have had a pretty bad downswing where i lost about half my roll lol..some of it was tilt but most of it was just sick beats where i would make the 2nd nuts and my opponet would make the nuts.. my brother who is terrible at online poker, ok at live poker, final tabled the sunday million and won 25k.. im telling you guys this because i havent really been playing much cash lately( mainly torneys) feeling a little deflated and low on confidence. i have written half a post about 3 bet defence so hopefully finish it soon, maybe tonight.

i have a list of topics i want to try and write post about might take a while but ill try and post one a week from now on and then at the end compile an edited version from all the feedback i receive in the forums. The compiled guide could be used hopefully to teach someone to beat micro stakes games.. also if anyone else wants to cover a specific topic tell me so i dont start writing a post about it lol.. thoughts on this idea??