Micro Stakes Online NL Poker Forums

Since I tend to keep my betsizing consisten, I 4bet with my premium hands in the same way I 4bet/fold (around 25 bb) vs players who 3bet way to much.

But lately I've seen a trend of people flatting 4bets against me.
So my question now is, do you think that players on 50 and 100 nl are capable of adjusting to there play to my 4bet size? Because I'm really tempted to make my 4bets alot bigger with premium hands..

Little example hand:


IPoker $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 198413
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (MP): $97.52
CO: $50.00
BTN: $56.27
SB: $71.29
BB: $95.65
UTG: $86.63

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, 2 folds, SB raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $6

Flop: ($24.50) 9 7 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $14.00, SB raises to $28, Hero raises to $85.52, SB calls $31.29 all in

Turn: ($143.08) J (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($143.08) K (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $143.08
SB shows 9 9
Hero wins $0.00
SB wins $140.08
(Rake: $3.00)

wait, why don't you want your opponents making unprofitable preflop calls against you again?

at 50nl, i don't think i would worry about being 'exploitable.' Also, I imagine people are more likely to flat 4bets at 50nl? So I would probably just 4b larger and with a strictly value range.

wait, why don't you want your opponents making unprofitable preflop calls against you again?

I was worried that I give my opponents to much implied odds

Dont be results oriented. So your AA got cracked by a set like it will 10-15% of the time you get it. If you 4bet bigger he's either folding or shoving(this is more unlikely).

that 4 bet looks a little small to me, but tbh my 4bet sizing is much more of a random slider movement into the teens than it is the result of any calculation.

i did do some calculations of the maths behind calling a 3 bet purely to set mine, and the result was that you can really only call a min-3-bet 100 deep purely for set-odds, even against a tight range. Because 1) villain doesn't auto stack off w whiffed AK or QQ on Kxx and 2) although rare, setting up and still losing happens often enough to cost you 1BB per time on average.

So, although you'd have to run some numbers to be sure, i would expect that even semi deep as you are, villain isn't getting the odds to set mine vs. a 4 bet like that.

I don't think anyone mentioned it, but your 4bet in this example could be bigger due to stack depth.

I think your 4bet size is a bit too small oop if you want to balance this with a decent bluffing range. The problem is not that you are giving people the right odds when you have AA, but against your overall range they get a good price if it contains enough bluffs.

i'd probably make it like $15 given stack sizes fwiw, my first comment was more of a devil's advocate question that i posed w/out really reading the thread that closely.

question that i posed w/out really reading the thread that closely

Standard for the Tuba

at 50nl, i don't think i would worry about being 'exploitable.' Also, I imagine people are more likely to flat 4bets at 50nl? So I would probably just 4b larger and with a strictly value range.

This. Make the 4b bigger and he's still going to call w/ 99. Trust me. Also, remember that you want him calling w/ 99 so even w/ your minraise you are making him make a mistake.

If the small blind raises your MP open, and both of you are standard TAG's with standard images at the moment, then he is most likely to have QQ+/AK I think. Maybe he also has JJ or an occasional light 3bet though, we don't know villains 3bet stat. In case villain is 3betting with some unexpected pocket pair, we can 4bet enough to deny him proper implied odds to set mine based on the effective stack sizes behind. This amount will also deny him implied odds for suited broadways/Aces/connectors/1-gappers as well since those hands need even more implied odds.

Here you raise to $1.75 and he 3bets to $6, then you 4bet to $12. He knows you have a big hand, probably QQ+/AK, and can consider set mining if the implied odds are good. The effective stacks behind are $65.29 and he has to put in $6. He has 11 to 1 implied odds. I have read that if you have worse than 10 to 1 implied odds then you has a clear fold, and if you have better than 20 to 1 implied odds then you have a clear call, and if you have some amount in between then it's less clear. But in this situation he knows that you have a huge hand, so if the 5/10 rule is accurate, then he is not making a mistake by calling your 4bet out of position to set mine maybe. I assume the 5/10 rules applies to 4bet pots in addition to 3bet pots right?

Now, if you 4bet to $13 he has to put in $7 and is getting about 9 to 1 implied odds and has a clear fold. This amount would be better. On the other hand, many villains will still call, and you can exploit them by 4betting to $14, which may be the maximum size raise they will call. If you 4bet to $14 he has to put in $8 and has 8 to 1 implied odds. A $14 4bet would be best here.

Hielko, is the 5/10 rule good for set mining in 4bet pots OOP when you believe villain has QQ+/AK? I'd like to do some calculations to decide what 4bet sizes are best for various stack sizes. Also, what is a default good 4bet size with 100bb stacks? Thanks, Yojimgari

4bet to 27bb's IMO

I think your 4bet size is a bit too small oop if you want to balance this with a decent bluffing range. The problem is not that you are giving people the right odds when you have AA, but against your overall range they get a good price if it contains enough bluffs.

Technically the bet size should be the smallest amount that still makes calling unprofitable (vs the whole range), right? But if this is true why is the difference between IP and OOP 4bet sizes so small?

Technically the bet size should be the smallest amount that still makes calling unprofitable (vs the whole range), right? But if this is true why is the difference between IP and OOP 4bet sizes so small?

Because position isn't that important when the SPR is super low, and that almost always is true after a 4bet.