Micro Stakes Online NL Poker Forums

Allright, decided to make the thread I've been thinking about alot recently. It involves stacking off with KK at micros, which pretty much everyone here seems to think is standard. However, my experience at 25NL is that when someone puts 100bb in preflop they have AA/KK 90% of the time, in which case getting allin pre with KK is actually a mistake.

Now if I look in my HEM database it seems to confirms this. I have 300K + hands in my database (90% 25NL and 10% 50NL). Now if I filter for the times I went allin preflop with KK for more then 50bb it shows a small loss. People just don't seem to stack off pre with QQ/AK at 25NL. Infact, in all the times I stacked off with KK preflop for 100bb I only faced QQ once over this entire sample.

So I'm sort of curious what results other players have had with KK at the micros. It's pretty easy to filter in HEM and I'm definitly curious to hear the results.

Even if what you say is true you should still stack off with KK. Think about it.

I dunno about 25NL, but at 50NL I've gotten it all in for 100bb or more against: AK and QQ very frequently, often against JJ and occasionally against TT and AQ, I even remember getting it in against AJ and AT on different occasions

I've also gotten it all in against complete air quite a few times

just for fun I'll even show you a 200bb+ hand (folding never entered my mind):

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
SB ($104)
BB ($59.50)
Hero ($141)
UTG+1 ($100)
CO ($58.65)
BTN ($98.95)

Dealt to Hero KK

Hero raises to $2, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $6.50, fold, Hero raises to $20, SB raises to $60.50, Hero raises to $141, SB calls $43.85,

FLOP ($209) 6JT

TURN ($209) 6JT5

RIVER ($209) 6JT58

SB shows 7A
Hero shows KK

Hero wins $206

You need to learn to not only play in tables with 15/10 nits, OP. Seriously wtf, "nobody stacks off with QQ at 25NL"? wat?

yeah i think you should think about ur tableselection.

I had a hand recently at 25NL where a 45/0/0.5 over 300 hands raised me. I 3bet, he 4bet. He had 0% 3 bet and 0% 4 bet, obv. Man I seriously thought it was AA. But chanting the old 'never fold KK pf' mantra, I shipped it in. He INSTA-called. AA, for sure, I was certain now. No he showed AQo and I fell off my chair.

Maybe he just got pissed off with a run of bad cards and decided to play AQo like AA, I dunno. But I do know I will never even THINK of folding KK pf again, because people do amazing things. Even people that apparently never ever raise or reraise a single hand.

Also, there was a hand at the last WSOPE, where QQ raised, Brian Townsend 3bet with KK and Scott Fishman 4bet with T2o, trying to pull a move. QQ folded pretty quick, then Brian Townsend thought about folding for a short while. But he still shipped it. I thought it was a good illustration of why you should never fold KK, even when it really looks like the other guy has aces. It was also funny cos Scott was priced in for a few K more and had to call and sheepishly turn over the ole texas dolly...

I'm sure the hand is on youtube or pokertube somewhere, I am at work and can't provide a link, sorry.


Also, I agree with posters above, if your database really shows no-one stacks off pf with QQ or less then you need to table select better.

That is really strange, I mean that's a fairly large sample to only have 1 instance of getting it in vs. a worse pair. Either you're terribly unlucky, really need work on table selection, or maybe filtering HEM wrong. I get it in with KK vs. smaller pairs and broadway type hands pretty regularly and occasional air. I use PT3 and it doesn't seem to have an easy way to filter for just this situation, so I can't say exactly but it seems like I've only run KK into AA a couple times.

I got it in todau vs. Q6s! whoopee!

- huge sample (close to 400k hands I guess)
- mainly 100NL and also a lot of 50NL
- 6-max
- KK
- All-in Preflop = True
=
1970.41 bb/100 (1468.80 EV bb/100)

Advice for you:
1. Don't fold KK till 150 bbs pre ever
2. Table select well, try to avoid regs and nits
3. Don't fold KK till 150 bbs pre ever


Also, maybe post some stats of typical players, that you claim are stacking off only with KK+ 90% of the time. I am very curious.