Micro Stakes Online NL Poker Forums

Cliffs: Tilted, lost big chunk of bankroll. Spew or standard?

[Whinge] Apologies if this is too BBVish for this forum, but I just lost about 50% of my puny microstakes bankroll over a 400 hand session, the vast majority in a 100 hand stretch of monkey tilt/idiocy.

One table had an average vpip of 65%, and I managed to lose 5 buyins playing 20/16 in 70 hands.

I won 6 pots over 10bb across the whole session. I lost 8 stacks. I actually ran 20p above expectation!

[/whinge]

Anyways I'd like some help in sorting the standard from the spew, and identifying the leaks these hands are bound to show up. I know posting results might not help some of the analysis, but some of these situations obv came up as a result of me getting tilted and its funny to see me getting worse and worse. Comments on all hands, all streets much appreciated. Particularly interested in where my thought process is completely wrong, even if I've come to the 'standard' decision and also in any mistakes on earlier streets that set up the spewy river decisions (which in themselves are usually pretty obvious).

If you are lazy, please just check hand 4 as its the closest to a typical example of a hand I have problems with (villain c/c, c/c, donks river), and hand 6 cos its a 3bet pot vs donks who always seem to own me in them by doing something weird (I think I play them relatively ok vs regs).

Pots where I lost 70bb or more, in chronological order:

1. Getting stacked HU early in the session.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#7071225483

($10.25)
Hero ($7.75)

Dealt to Hero J4

Hero raises to $0.30, call,

FLOP ($0.60) 348

check, check,

TURN ($0.60) 3484

bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.30, raises to $9.95, Hero calls $6.15,

RIVER ($15.50) 34842



shows 33
(Flop 98.1%, Turn 84.1%)

Hero shows J4
(Flop 1.9%, Turn 15.9%)

wins $14.73

Villain seemed pretty aggro by cryto uNL standards, but I'd only played 15 hands with her. I called the shove as I thought there were more overpairs, Axdd etc in her range than 33/88/4x. Think this is pretty standard but willing to be persuaded otherwise.



2. A while later, 10nl HU still.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#7071672083

($7.13)
Hero ($11.72)

Dealt to Hero AA

Hero raises to $0.30, call,

FLOP ($0.60) A5T

bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30,

TURN ($1.20) A5T9

bets $0.20, Hero raises to $1.20, calls $1,

RIVER ($3.60) A5T94

check, Hero bets $2.40, raises to $5.33, Hero calls $2.93,

shows 7J
(Flop 23.7%, Turn 22.7%)

Hero shows AA
(Flop 76.3%, Turn 77.3%)

wins $13.55

Villain was 65/15 over 80 or so hands. I decided to slowplay the flop (which I dont do often) as I thought I'd be way ahead of his donking range and a big raise would most likely fold out air, random Tx, pocket pairs etc. I dont think he would donk like that with a big ace or two pair.

Is the river bet spew? Obviously fairly passive guys like this love to play suited crap and the obvious draw just got there. I think that bet small/call a raise oop line is more often a draw than a hand like AT with this sort of player. Am I a typical busto unl donk for calling the shove? I really cant see him doing it with anything but the flush in hindsight.



3. This began the crazy spew period. Tilted by my idiocy... Not so much a misclick as not paying attention, or something.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.06(BB) Replayer Game#7071726863

SB ($24.56)
BB ($11.67)
UTG ($2.52)
Hero ($12.01)
BTN ($6.48)

Dealt to Hero QK

fold, Hero raises to $0.18, fold, call, fold,

FLOP ($0.42) 2TQ

check, Hero bets $0.30, SB calls $0.30,

TURN ($1.02) 2TQ4

SB bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.90, SB raises to $24.08, Hero calls $10.63,

RIVER ($24.08) 2TQ49



Hero shows QK
(Flop 4.8%, Turn 0.0%)

SB shows TT
(Flop 95.2%, Turn 100.0%)

SB wins $22.88

In my defence, villain was a total spaz playing 68/8. A few hands before I had caught him shoving 100bb with a 6high flush draw when the board paired on the turn, hence my stack. I snapcalled whilst paying more attention to sizing a bet on another table with time running down (f u crypto software) before noticing how deep we were. oops. Obviously for 200bb we can turbomuck this, but for 100bb?

In hindsight I fell victim to a classic donkey setup.



4. 2 mins later, different table. I think this is standard till the river.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.06(BB) Replayer Game#7071689133

SB ($5.23)
BB ($7.71)
UTG ($8.26)
CO ($5.82)
Hero ($6.49)

Dealt to Hero KQ

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.18, call, fold,

FLOP ($0.42) 6Q6

check, Hero bets $0.36, SB calls $0.36,

TURN ($1.14) 6Q6K

check, Hero bets $0.90, SB calls $0.90,

RIVER ($2.94) 6Q6K8

SB bets $1.02, Hero raises to $5.05, SB calls $2.77,

Hero shows KQ
(Flop 8.9%, Turn 9.1%)

SB shows 68
(Flop 91.1%, Turn 90.9%)

SB wins $10

Villain was 54/4 over only 20ish hands. You can see the tilt seeping in, that river raise is pure spew, right? Obviously the 8 changes nothing (unless he has exactly 88 I guess, or maybe K8 that he suddenly thinks is worth value betting) but he donks out anyway. It's hard to think of much he would do this with other than 6x but I think top two is too strong to fold and I'd assume calling is the standard line?



5. Same table, same villain as hand 3. Five mins later. Not really interesting, just sticking it here to continue the tale of my descent into tiltmode.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.06(BB) Replayer Game#7071727393

SB ($32.01)
BB ($12.38)
UTG ($6)
Hero ($5.01)
BTN ($11.14)

Dealt to Hero QA

Hero raises to $0.24, fold, call, fold,

FLOP ($0.54) 4JA

check, Hero bets $0.30, SB raises to $0.60, Hero calls $0.30,

TURN ($1.74) 4JA9

check, Hero bets $1.44, SB calls $1.44,

RIVER ($4.62) 4JA92

SB bets $29.73, Hero calls $2.73,

Hero shows QA
(Flop 77.1%, Turn 68.2%)

SB shows 8J
(Flop 22.9%, Turn 31.8%)

SB wins $9.58

Should I have 3bet the flop? I figured that a big raise would probably just fold out random Jx, pocket pairs etc and there werent many draws for him to continue with. Turn is standard. Fold river for 60% pot sized bet?




6. Same table again, next orbit. Spot the person who gets dealt a big hand and thinks he deserves the pot because he is stuck and tilted...

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.06(BB) Replayer Game#7071727583

SB ($36.73)
BB ($12.26)
UTG ($6.95)
Hero ($6)
BTN ($11.05)

Dealt to Hero QA

UTG raises to $0.33, Hero raises to $1.05, fold, call, fold, call,

FLOP ($3.18) 457

check, UTG bets $0.42, Hero raises to $4.95, SB folds, UTG calls $4.53,

TURN ($13.08) 457J



RIVER ($13.08) 457J2



UTG shows JJ
(Flop 74.7%, Turn 100.0%)

Hero shows QA
(Flop 25.3%, Turn 0.0%)

UTG wins $12.43

SB is our chum Mr 68/6 from before. UTG was 52/15 over 30 or so hands. Hadnt seem him do anything of note so far.

Is the best play here to call that weird bet on the flop and see what happens on the turn? I dont think we can really narrow down UTGs range much with the preflop call, your average loose passive donk at the crypto micros can easily show up here with K6s or whatnot, especially with SB calling already. I'm fairly sure he would also consider any overpair the nuts here and trying to rep QQ+ to get a fold out of 88-JJ would be futile. But I did it anyway, maybe. Dunno what I was thinking tbh.

Do you think we can interpret that flop bet as weak and shove profitably? I dont think so, but then again I'm biased by results. And six quid poorer. Two kebabs



7. I'm cringing looking back at this one. Three minutes after the previous hand.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.06(BB) Replayer Game#7072002083

SB ($4.23)
BB ($6)
Hero ($7.68)
UTG+1 ($12.23)
CO ($7.53)
BTN ($7.42)

Dealt to Hero KK

Hero raises to $0.18, fold, fold, fold, call, fold,

FLOP ($0.42) T55

check, Hero bets $0.36, SB calls $0.36,

TURN ($1.14) T55T

check, Hero bets $0.96, SB raises to $2.34, Hero raises to $7.14, SB calls $1.35,

RIVER ($8.52) T55T8



SB shows 4T
(Flop 8.7%, Turn 95.5%)

Hero shows KK
(Flop 91.3%, Turn 4.5%)

SB wins $8.10

Obviously the shove was retarded, but is the best line to bet/fold the turn or check behind? I can't really see what we are getting value from when we bet. Villain was new to the table.


8. Last one. It's another 'villain donks river when scary card hits but I call anyway hand'!

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.06(BB) Replayer Game#7072572863

SB ($3.57)
BB ($5.20)
CO ($5.09)
Hero ($6.87)

Dealt to Hero TA

Hero raises to $0.18, fold, call,

FLOP ($0.39) TK9

check, Hero bets $0.24, CO calls $0.24,

TURN ($0.87) TK9Q

check, Hero bets $0.78, CO calls $0.78,

RIVER ($2.43) TK9QK

CO bets $3.89, Hero calls $3.89,

CO shows QQ
(Flop 49.6%, Turn 20.5%)

Hero shows TA
(Flop 50.4%, Turn 79.5%)

CO wins $9.70

Fold river? Villain was 68/0/4.3 but only 20 hands on him. Anyone think he could have a Jack or AK enough to make this a call? Bear in mind thats 65bbs on the river.. Guess I just wasnt in any mood to fold the nut flush when stuck so much.


In conclusion I am a great big calling station and need to learn that when idiots who play 100% of suited cards bet big when the flush comes, they probably have it. Results based thinking ftw. Any deeper insights much appreciated!

Thanks.

I should point out that as much as losing 10 buyins in two hours hurts, typing up this post first time round only to have it disappear when firefox randomly refreshed for no reason probably tilted me even more. However actually thinking (twice..) about why the hell I made some of these daft plays has been really helpful so even if this is the only reply this topic ever gets its been worth it!

One more thing to bear in mind, the play at 6nl (GBP, im on a mac with boot camp and cant work out how to do a pound sign) is way way looser than full tilt 10/25/50nl (the only other place Ive played regularly). So these 60/8 guys arent unusual, there is no table dynamic surrounding them etc. Theres also a lot more spaztards shoving in every 10 hands when they hit TPNK. Just generally a lot less 24/13 tagfish than FT micros. I have started making hero calls and often being right, something I'd never ever do on ft. dunno if thats relevant, just might explain some stuff if you are grinding 25nl on tilt/stars or whaddeva

The biggest leak I see is not quitting before hand 6.

Joe Tallism borrowed from Tommy Angeloism.

The tables will be there tomorrow, and so will the 60/8 guy.

And no, not all your hands are bbv. You misplayed many of them, imo (regardless of result). Post them individually without the result, and find the leaks!

in regards to hand 6.. what do you think this villains Raise/Call 3bet range is and do you think hes going to fold to a shove?

in regards to hand 6.. what do you think this villains Raise/Call 3bet range is and do you think hes going to fold to a shove?

He is probably calling 100% of his opening range. Without reads, I'd give him the usual suspects... TT+,ATs+,KQs though he might play tighter and looser (what???). I've seen these folks not raise with AA/KK and instead replace them with stuff like 56s. It is mostly read dependent, but I start conservative until shown differently, especially if they are generally passive.

As far as what he folds to a shove? He's never folding an overpair or a flush draw and two overs. Some of these guys will never fold AK either (and even AQ, AJs!!!).

I just don't see getting tremendous fold equity from this type of player. If we could, we'd just 3-bet all day and shove any 8 high flop and poker would be easy.

Im not going to talk to you about the hands if your losing 8 to 10 bi when your playing a session your doing something wrong. Just stop at 3 or 4 look over your hands. If you can sit in a session and lose 6bi n expect to play right ship me some of what you got plz.

I feel for ya man. Those hands look like a standard session for me this month. Hope it gets better.

Yeah, I feel ya to, looks just like me for the last two months of '08. This month = much better though, so it will turn around. You do need to really start to think about how you feel when you are tilting so you can preemptively quit your session. Sorry, but I can't explain what I mean very well...

Definitely setting a stop-loss and forcing yourself to stick to it rekr_brat's post is essential during these periods.

GL yo!

EDIT: yeah I didn't mean to put that smiley in there, was trying to refer to pkr_brat's post above!

Thanks everyone. Yeah I think I definitely have to start setting a stoploss. I never used to tilt

Re hand 6, I think I'm with the guy who said he is calling 100% of his opening range there. Noone folds to 3bets at 6nl on crypto, its only ever worth doing for value. You're right I think about the lack of fold equity too.. This is a shove I should be making with AA etc to valuetown half his range, not AQo to fold out a very small % of it. The 3bet itself is probably pretty marginal (vs a 6x raise UTG..lol) I think I just saw AQ OMG CHANCE TO GET SOME £££BACK

Any hands horribly misplayed before the river/turn (if thats where the money went in)? I think most of the river decisions are pretty obviously terrible but most of the rest still looks fairly standard to me. Maybe raise flop in hand 2 (AAA), bet more on flop in the last hand?

I am finding that the Remix ep 4 (or whatever) on folding is helping me alot. Put it on repeat, and let it soak into your subconscious - all day long.

I can def get into calling station/I don't believe you mode myself. I have actually located the fold button on my poker client, and I even click it occasionally now.

hand 1: Fold. Plain and simple. Trips is fun, but when they hit and your opponent wakes up you have to pause for a moment and ask yourself if someone could have a set (now a boat).

Hand 2: Yes, raise the flop, try to get them in on the safe turn if they call the flop raise. Im making the flop like 3 to go there. I slowplay like this sometimes, and it always equals a suckout. Don't get down on yourself for not getting stacks with a big hand like this - be happy that you didn't let them suck out on you and take yours.

Hand 3: Cooler, but folding the turn seems pretty easy.

Hand 4: Coolerish - I don't really mind the river raise here. You have to ask yourself why villan is calling every street and not ever raising there, obv answer is strong Q or weak k. A 6/8 is going to be hard to put the guy on.

Hand 5: Hmm - easy to say rr him on the flop, but that board is fairly dry, and you are way ahead/way behind here usually. Not sure if I could have done it, but a raise to like 2$ on the flop would have defined everyone's hands pretty well. There is a backdoor str draw on board, so charge him. He may or may not peel with a strong J, but you are in position, so re-eval on the turn.

Hand 6: Spew

Hand 7: Cooler, but you probably need to stop and think when he raises you on the turn. He is probably only calling you with a T,5 or pp on the flop. Does his PP bet here on the turn? Wouldn't it have to be bigger than a 10 to do so, and if it was, wouldn't you have known that before now? Cooler on the turn, spew when you shove.

Hand 8: Cooler, Im calling here every time, always.

Well, I play small stakes myself but maybe you can use some of this anyway.


#1
It's HU NL6. you have trips, no straights/flushes possible. Be happy you got it in.

#2
Raise more on the turn. You are giving him too good implied odds. Effectively he's calling 1 to win 1.2+1.2+5 = 1:7,4 implied

Again, it's HU. Noone ever really has anything. And with the odds you're getting you can't fold.

#3

Fold. I can't really see what worse than TP shoves for 160BB here. Even with a spazzy opponent

But I think for re-raise was a bit too small on the turn.

#4

You can never fold the river. The question is how aggressive he is on the river. At this limit I can't see it is a big mistake to get it in.

#5


Im not sure about 3betting the flop. I doubt we will be able to get stacks in here with a hand that we beat, so I don't mind calling his minraise. (Also given that the stacks allow us to get all in by the river anyway)

The 2s river changes nothing really. You can't start fearing backdoor flushes everytime they hit.

#6

pf is fine
Flop is bad. His bet obviously sucks, but raising all in there in a 4 way pot is just spew.

In general, only re-raise postflop in 3+way pots when you are happy to be called. Do not try to bluff multiple opponents.


#7
Fine until the turn. I check behind here, unless you've seen him float the flop with all sorts of crap.

The turn is a classic Way ahead / Way behind situation.
No hands that got to the turn can call, unless they beat you. So you're basicly turning your hand into a bluff.

#8
Flop: You bet less with your draws than with your made hands. Not much of an issue here, I don't expect your opponents to notice.

He overbets when the king hits. He's so aggresive based on the few hands you have that it's an easy call anyway.



In general i think your re-raises are a bit to the small side.

If you havn't, you might want to watch WoT's Math of NLHE series.

In general, at 10nl, i recommend playing a lower variance. No need to be raising so much or playing a hugely aggressive game when you can just get paid off with your made hands.

I won't go into great detail in each hand, but I think there were some spots where u could have just folded. Certainly luck wasn't on your side in this session, but I think playing very solid and standard at 10nl (and up to 50nl) is all it takes to be a winner.