Icehockeyplyr
279 posts
Joined 08/2009
Another awesome video. You two make a great combo! I love the format, slow pace, street by street breakdowns, and I hope to see more.
1 thing to comment on- The set over set hand at the 20:30 mark, river bet, When I see these small river bets, to me they just scream reraise me PLEASE, I DARE you. Is it correct to assume that this player type is trying to induce a shove on the river?
Anyway great video, Thank you Inavacuum and Snappievouz
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
inavacuum
1152 posts
Joined 04/2008
1 thing to comment on- The set over set hand at the 20:30 mark, river bet, When I see these small river bets, to me they just scream reraise me PLEASE, I DARE you. Is it correct to assume that this player type is trying to induce a shove on the river?
It's possible that's what's happening (and in other scenarios it definitely does happen), however here it may just be that he's trying not to lose his customer. If he doesn't make this size of bet he's getting to the point where he has to size it so that he commits the rest of Hero's relative stack.
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
p00s88
74 posts
Joined 10/2009
bjordan
640 posts
Joined 02/2009
TecmoSuperBowl
Tribe Leader
5553 posts
Joined 01/2009
p00s88
74 posts
Joined 10/2009
mixmastered
123 posts
Joined 07/2008
inavacuum
1152 posts
Joined 04/2008
Shove seems spewy here. Surely you can flat, keep in worse flush draws, and bet the turn when he gives up on his bluffs. Can't really see him betting again on the turn. Or, if you really think he is, we can collect another bet and shove the turn?
I think that would be just fine, you've thought it out well and it may be a better line in a vacuum. The reason I prefer a shove for myself here is that this is a spot I want to be able to get lights calls in the future. For example, the 99 hand in episode 1 took a number of spots where I took a line like this for him to get fed up and make a mistake at the time where it mattered the most. A huge part of my own game is based on image and this line was/is a stylistic preference for me.
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
zenben
1270 posts
Joined 03/2009
Time Link to 00:07:17
What if villain has a draw here-something like xhxh or 67o/A3o can we take the same line and expect him to stab on a blank turn with these as well? What if he has a small pair?
What I'm basically trying to get at, is what part of his range DOESN'T stab the turn after our missed cbet, and how should we respond as a result?
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
inavacuum
1152 posts
Joined 04/2008
What if villain has a draw here-something like xhxh or 67o/A3o can we take the same line and expect him to stab on a blank turn with these as well? What if he has a small pair?
What I'm basically trying to get at, is what part of his range DOESN'T stab the turn after our missed cbet, and how should we respond as a result?
I think he would bet all of his draws and air, less often weak showdown value but it certainly happens. I think he can stab 100% of his range but is less likely to stab mid-weak showdown value (remembering that we're assuming he's a fish). If he didn't bet the turn I'd be quite unlikely to try and make him fold the river when he often does have showdown value and it becomes a case of "our A high is good or he's not folding".
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
zenben
1270 posts
Joined 03/2009
Time Link to 00:45:46
I'm really enjoying how you two interact in these videos-Inavacuum does an awesome job walking snappievouz through the thinking process and produces multiple "ahh-ha" moments that many of us learning poker players strive for when we reach out to a coach. Very nicely done.
@ 0:45:40
Inavaccum-On this hand in the 3 bet pot with KQ on Axxtt, are there any turns/rivers where you're not continuing your plan for a 3 barrel bluff? I'm not sure I agree with you that most players will raise a heart draw on the flop (at least not the better ones). I've learned that most REG's will fire 1 and done with their bluffs in 3 bet pots on Axx boards, so if others think as I do, they recognize there's little use for a raise with a flush draw on this board, PLUS it doesn't rep much, as I can really never have AK/AA/A9 and rarely 99. So it's obv player dependent, but if we are pegging this player as good enough to fold JJ on the river to a shove, would we also expect him to have flush draws in his range when he calls our cbet? Therefore, should we shut down on a heart?
Does our plan change at all if we improve to a pair? What about a J on the board (the most likely of his BW cards due to card elim.)
Thanks!
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
inavacuum
1152 posts
Joined 04/2008
in the 3 bet pot with KQ on Axxtt, are there any turns/rivers where you're not continuing your plan for a 3 barrel bluff? I'm not sure I agree with you that most players will raise a heart draw on the flop (at least not the better ones). I've learned that most REG's will fire 1 and done with their bluffs in 3 bet pots on Axx boards, so if others think as I do, they recognize there's little use for a raise with a flush draw on this board, PLUS it doesn't rep much, as I can really never have AK/AA/A9 and rarely 99. So it's obv player dependent, but if we are pegging this player as good enough to fold JJ/QQ/KK on the river to a shove, would we also expect him to have flush draws in his range when he calls our cbet? Therefore, should we shut down on a heart?
Does our plan change at all if we improve to a pair? What about a J on the board (the most likely of his BW cards due to card elim.)
I don't think he will raise all his flush draws on the flop. It's certainly not what he should be doing without a good reason. But people do it, especially at NL50, and as such I think we can remove 1 or 2 combos of FDs when he doesn't. I do not mean to suggest we remove a FD from his range when he doesn't raise the flop. I would continue on a heart not so much because it's a scare card (it's not really, in a 3bet pot) but because it's a good barrel card when we have the K
. I also like a river bet on a 4flush (whether we have a flush or not) because that really is scary and as such our own heart draw is more of a bonus than the only reason we do barrel a heart. To answer your original question, Ax would be a pretty bad turn to continue on, I'd be happy to bet a K, Q or J I think for fairly obvious reasons but if you'd like me to go into more detail I can do.
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
TwoDolphins
23 posts
Joined 06/2009
It's nice to see you making videos. Keep it up!
I'd have a question about the 3bet with A4o starting at 52:20. I wonder is shoving against his raise optimal play on flop? Are we trying to make him fold better hands? As you mentioned, would he make this play with strong aces? And would he fold those hands to a shove once he has raised?
If we're not trying to make better hands to fold, would it be more optimal to raise teasingly to somewhere around 24 which would look more like a "click it back" and then snap call if he shoves? I think he would be even more inclined to shove himself with QJ type of hands than to call our shove.
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote
inavacuum
1152 posts
Joined 04/2008
I'd have a question about the 3bet with A4o starting at 52:20. I wonder is shoving against his raise optimal play on flop? Are we trying to make him fold better hands? As you mentioned, would he make this play with strong aces? And would he fold those hands to a shove once he has raised?
If we're not trying to make better hands to fold, would it be more optimal to raise teasingly to somewhere around 24 which would look more like a "click it back" and then snap call if he shoves? I think he would be even more inclined to shove himself with QJ type of hands than to call our shove.
This line is certainly up for debate, to an extent. I can't advocate a fold when I see villain's bet sizing at micro being a bluff close to 100% of the time. Calling is problematic for a number of reasons, mainly because we seed the initiative with no knowledge of how often he is likely to continue a bluff and turn our hand somewhat face up. It's also probably not going to be profitable to call down if the board gets bad for us, yet again we have no idea as to his bluffing frequency. This in theory gives him the green light to push us off our range on certain turn/rivers. This leaves shoving and raising smaller, both of which have merit. I think I would prefer a smaller raise vs someone I had history with and could use it to allow them to level themselves. Vs a more unknown NL50 player who I think is bluffing or at least doing something because he doesn't understand my flop bet sizing I prefer shoving because I think it's the most likely line to induce a mistake from him - he may view a clickback as extremely strong.
Posted about 3 years ago
Reply to Topic
Reply w/Quote