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10NL thin vbet with KK?


zenben

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1270 posts
Joined 03/2009

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 899227
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: $9.65
UTG: $10.16
Hero (CO): $28.60
BTN: $11.87
SB: $82.99


Villain is 34/14/30%agg/1%3bet/13%F3bet/53%cbet/51%Fcbet/66%Fsteal/44%W$SF/28%WTSD in about 560 hands. I have quite a few notes on this player. Some that might be relevant here:

he has flatted the flop and raised a blank turn with a Kh FD on ATxtt x, then bluffed the Q river unimproved.
He slowplayed turned 2 pair oOP and lead the river for just over 1/2 pot for value
he tends to bluff when shown weakness, even in 3 way pots when not repping anything (e.g. when draws miss).
He didn't 2 barrel an A when he hit TPNK and called a river bet.

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with K Diamond K Club
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.90) A Diamond Q Heart 8 Spade (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.90) 4 Heart (2 players)
SB bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($2.50) A Heart (2 players)
SB checks, Hero?

Considering our opponent, should we bet here? any critiques on earlier streets?

Posted over 1 year ago

CDA

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1353 posts
Joined 01/2009

One thing to think about here is what worse hands will call you? Here I think there are probably a few. Qx, JJ, TT, 99, maybe even some smaller pairs if he's really crazy.

I don't think a vbet is too thin here. He's not going to be playing a rivered flush like this unless he thinks you have an Ace or something.

As far as earlier streets, I would bet this flop sometimes. If you're always checking here, you run the risk of turning your hand face up. I don't really think you should worry about this against this villain at these stakes though. Just something to think about.

Against a really tricky/crazy opponent, just taking the showdown is fine.

Edit: Actually, maybe it sounds weak/tight, but I think you can just check back here at these stakes and it's fine. It may in fact be too thin to vbet against possibly passive opponents.

Posted over 1 year ago

trickybob

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58 posts
Joined 08/2010

I think you could bet about half pot for value here (obviously fold to a raise) but I prefer checking. It might seem that we are passing up a bit of value, but I'd expect him to fold more often than play.
If we check, we get to know his hand and can make notes and that might win us more in the long run.

Posted over 1 year ago

zenben

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1270 posts
Joined 03/2009


If we check, we get to know his hand and can make notes and that might win us more in the long run.



I honestly already have a ton of reads on this player. My feel here is he bets the turn with his entire range after I check back the flop, so being IP, there's no reason to v-cut myself on the flop since he's also not likely to hand read well. No reason to raise the turn bet, really-he only calls with better or possibly 3bets some draws. On the river I was a little surprised he checked. I have seen him cbet, then check the turn when he hits top pair, so it's possible that he's inducing here with an A, a boat, or heart. Still, there are only 2 Aces left in the deck. The real question, as CDA said, is does he CALL with worse. It's not impossible for him to look me up with a Qx type hand here. My line looks pretty fishy to these suspicious types.

Posted over 1 year ago

trickybob

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58 posts
Joined 08/2010

The real question, as CDA said, is does he CALL with worse. It's not impossible for him to look me up with a Qx type hand here. My line looks pretty fishy to these suspicious types.



Yes I agree with CDA there are worse hands he will call with.
I wouldn't over complicate the situation though. If he is inducing he raises/you fold, take a note etc.
But it is 10nl,and I'm not saying there aren't thinking players, but keep in perspective the level.
Bet sizing is important too. You're looking for a crying call so don't go too big. This also protects your losses when he does have the hand. He's not going to call a pot size bet with QJ, but a half pot bet ... (obviously this is a bit villain dependant)

Posted over 1 year ago

Gert_en_Piet

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1014 posts
Joined 04/2008

I really think betting the flop is usually best here. You can get value from Qx, JT, T9, KJ, maybe JJ, TT and 99 because villain has a low 3b%.

Posted over 1 year ago

zenben

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1270 posts
Joined 03/2009

I really think betting the flop is usually best here. You can get value from Qx, JT, T9, KJ, maybe JJ, TT and 99 because villain has a low 3b%.



Intersting point. Villain is known to raise draws, but usually flats the flop and raises the turn. If we get raised on this flop, do we have to fold? Seems like we risk building a big pot vs the slow-play type of player by raising here, but I do agree he's not folding 2nd pair or PP's to a cbet. If we bet the flop and he calls, do we just check back the turn? That line would produce approximately the same river size as this river.

Posted over 1 year ago

SCS

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5109 posts
Joined 06/2008

I wouldn't worry to much about being raised on the flop here. If villain does happen to raise, it's a pretty easy fold.

I would bet flop here for value against villain. Check turn for pot control and call a river bet, bet river if checked to.

Posted over 1 year ago

zenben

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1270 posts
Joined 03/2009

I wouldn't worry to much about being raised on the flop here. If villain does happen to raise, it's a pretty easy fold.

I would bet flop here for value against villain. Check turn for pot control and call a river bet, bet river if checked to.



is this the plan against this villain in particular, or would you recommend making this a standard vs players at this limit?

Posted over 1 year ago

SCS

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5109 posts
Joined 06/2008

is this the plan against this villain in particular, or would you recommend making this a standard vs players at this limit?



Would you bet the flop here with A2s versus most 10nl villains?

Posted over 1 year ago

DetroitMojo

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176 posts
Joined 05/2010

I would say just a shade under 1/2 pot for max value extraction -- in theory; but there are some sessions and times when you just don't have the stomach for it.

Posted over 1 year ago

QuetzalCoatl

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1453 posts
Joined 09/2008

he doesn't sound like the type to ck/call rivered trips because he's afraid of the flush, but he does sound like he might CR a flush or trips some of the time.

That said, I think he has worse often and will call a small bet often enough that we'll be thinly value betting not value cutting ourselves. Is there any danger that we bet small and he raises over weakness with a worse hand?

Posted over 1 year ago

zenben

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1270 posts
Joined 03/2009

Would you bet the flop here with A2s versus most 10nl villains?



Good point

Posted over 1 year ago

zenben

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1270 posts
Joined 03/2009

he doesn't sound like the type to ck/call rivered trips because he's afraid of the flush, but he does sound like he might CR a flush or trips some of the time.

That said, I think he has worse often and will call a small bet often enough that we'll be thinly value betting not value cutting ourselves. Is there any danger that we bet small and he raises over weakness with a worse hand?



Maybe...This crossed my mind as well. He's not a "good" thinking player, but he's definitely suspicious/tricky that way-for instance he might not read hands, but sees a check and autobets his whole range, not realizing he's value betting.

I've never seen him raise the river-a lot of aggro players have a hard time balancing their river raising range. I think we can bet something like $1.50 and fold to a raise.

Posted over 1 year ago

Erix5son

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325 posts
Joined 02/2010

I think that you should just check behind in this spot since imo there are more flush and Ax combos than worse pairs that will call/raise if we count combos Smile

Posted over 1 year ago




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