Never mind, sorted, didn\'t read the OP :unsure:

Love the HORSE vids Joe, keep \'em comin\'. Sorry about another bubble

Boomer

themightyjim2k wrote:

about 25:30 in you play a hand of StudHL and you limp behind one guy in late position with the A79 all hearts with the 9 showing. You mention that the other limper is most certainly playing for the high with the 9 showing.

on 4th st. you catch an off suit 2, the limper gets an off suit A, and the bring catches a Q. You fold to the other limpers bet, obviously a pretty reasonable play. However since the bring hit a total brick for a low draw, and you think the other player is going high, is there any merit to taking one off and trying to hit either a good low draw or a 4th heart on 5th street. I know you don\'t want to make too many loose calls on 4th st, but based on the hands you expect your opponents to be holding I would think you should still have some equity going both ways.

just wondering. I\'m a total stud8 noob (read about half of ray zees book and the chapter in SS2) but I\'m trying to pick up anything I can.

JT mentions why calling there is bad but doesn\'t go too much into detail.

1) The pot is minute, ESPECIALLY for a HI/LO pot 3-way.

2) Our draw is very poor. We are drawing to half the pot, no more really. The open Limper makes an Ace on 4th improving his hand and leaving us with less outs for high. We currently have a 3 card draw both ways, and our high draw is awful.

3) Our position is terrible.The bring still currently has a random hand so we have absolutely no idea if the Q was a brick or not, which means there is a chance we are stuck in the middle of 2 players with currently the worst hand. Not a good position in Stud HI/LO

4) Our hand is an open book to our opponents. This is what JT was talking about. Our opponents will be able to play perfectly against us on all streets up to the River regardless of how we improve.

Think about what happens when we improve somehow. Let\'s say we improve our High Draw on 5th, Say we spike an A or an open pair of 9\'s. Depending on how our opponents\' boards come together, there is a high likelihood of us being first to act if we improve with any chance of having the best hand. Our opponents will have position on us, and almost complete knowledge of our hand. Open 9\'s would be the worst, but spiking an A wouldn\'t be much better.

Now say we improve our Low draw. Our opponent(s) will know we don\'t have a made low yet because of the open 9, as opposed to if we had the 7 up like JT was talking about. In the latter case there is some doubt in our opponents mind as to what we have, and we can possibly take advantage of that by getting free cards or folding a better hand. We get no such advantages with our hand laid out the way it is.

In this situation we are hoping for a perfect card, a Low Heart to hit our board, Even then we are committed to calling down on the 2 Big streets praying for a scoop in this tiny pot.


BTW JT I don\'t like the limp behind here. I understand why it was your goto play. If you had any kind of read at all you would have been able to accurately make the better play (Raise or Fold) but I think if (A7hh)9h is too good of a hand to pass up VS. an unknown CO Open Limper, then I suggest a Raise.

Raising would have eliminated many of the problems you had on 4th. In your situation, even when you improved(sort of) you were still put to a difficult decision when the 3rd player was present and you didn\'t have initiative.

FWIW, you answer the question perfectly. Great analysis. I can only hope that you got such a great answer from watching my vids! I would take 10% credit! Well done!


On to your question:

Nfinity wrote:

BTW JT I don\'t like the limp behind here. I understand why it was your goto play. If you had any kind of read at all you would have been able to accurately make the better play (Raise or Fold) but I think if (A7hh)9h is too good of a hand to pass up VS. an unknown CO Open Limper, then I suggest a Raise.

Raising would have eliminated many of the problems you had on 4th. In your situation, even when you improved(sort of) you were still put to a difficult decision when the 3rd player was present and you didn\'t have initiative.

There one obvious reason I didnt raise 3rd, and you say it here for the most part:

Our hand is an open book to our opponents. This is what JT was talking about. Our opponents will be able to play perfectly against us on all streets up to the River regardless of how we improve.

There is a few more, that I didnt get into.

1. By raising on 3rd, if I fail to get it HU, it\'s a disaster, as it\'s obv I have a high hand, and I have be fairly lucky to dodge the bring-ins possible low. W/O going back to see the dead cards, I think there were a lot of high-hands that folded so the bring has a higher probability that he has a low.

2. I re-open the betting. Its obv the bring is up against 2 high hands and he should be re-raising all sorts of gutter-razz-hands, and o/c premium low draw. I would re-raise a hand like 643r here, etc. and you should to if you were the bring.

3. It bloats the pot. Regardless of what I hit on 4th, my opponents have all the right in the world to now call correctly in a bigger pot. Even a missed 3-low cold peel lightly and be about break-even to positive with implied odds against two highs.

Hope this helps,
Joe Tall

Since it is unlikely that the bring has much of a hand since he didn\'t open complete.

You really won\'t find a lot of people open-completing on the Bring, and you shouldn\'t be doing it too often in a full-ring(I don\'t think:blink: )

Open-Completing on the Bring doesn\'t improve your odds greatly when you call a raise either way, and I certainly don\'t think it\'s worth what you give up by advertising the value of your hand in such an obvious manner.

see I learn something new in the same thread. sweet.