This thread discusses the Content article: Joe Tall coaches OffCall - 11/30/07

First I want to say thank you to OffCall for allowing to share his session w/the community here!

Thisis my first time using our new tools at DeucesCracked. OffCall can seemy desktop as we go over the hands in the replayer. The converstationis recorded and the video is all packaged for you guys to see!

Any comments on the hands, my coaching style or the format of the video, please let us know so we can improve!

Thanks again, OffCall!

Great video Joe, I really liked the pre flop discussion you had in this one. I think I learned quite a lot about pre flop concepts from the comments you made about the two AQ suited hands. I hope you can get some time to do more of these types of videos.

While having the button is important in fixed limit, it\'s not that important.

The button is more important than you\'ve possibly imagined.

Then there\'s the other hand, 87o on the button after three limpers. Now, I would fold this 100% of the time even knowing that the blinds would never raise

Folding or calling is perfectly fine. I believe I brought that up in the video. It\'s my bare-bottom of my button-limp range and I would say that it has be be perfect conditions so I\'m likely playing ~50%.

It seems you anticipate counter-arguments, but KTo is a muck UTG. It doesn\'t matter if you call it UTG, \"over the flower\", \"in the neighborhood of hijack\" or \"grandpa\'s stockings\", but three off the button KTo is a muck. It faces domination concerns and doesn\'t like cold calls either.

I am still in the raising camp but after talking w/DD he said he folds (I have to see this to believe it) and if you look at Stox\'s book it\'s a fold, I believe. Soo, that being said, obviously a fold is never wrong One fold and I am definitely raising, 2 folds and weak-tights should be raising. I going to have to do some sims and revisit some analysis and I thank you for bringing this up.

Joe Tall wrote:

Then there\'s the other hand, 87o on the button after three limpers. Now, I would fold this 100% of the time even knowing that the blinds would never raise

Folding or calling is perfectly fine. I believe I brought that up in the video. It\'s my bare-bottom of my button-limp range and I would say that it has be be perfect conditions so I\'m likely playing ~50%.

I refuse to accept this. :-)

It has clear equity disadvantage even against purely random hands and those limpers aren\'t playing 100% of their hands. It does not play well multiway.

Now, 87s is a whole different story. It doesn\'t have a clear equity advantage against loose limping ranges, but it does have postflop strategic advantages. Suitedness improves the hot-and-cold equity for about 6% or so.

I hate to stox-this-stox-that but their over-limping recommendations don\'t include any offsuit hands, only pairs, suited aces and suited connectors.

SSHE recommends over-limping in late position with any offsuit hands with both cards ten or higher.

So I basically haven\'t seen anyone recommend this play.

jajvirta wrote:

Joe Tall wrote:

While having the button is important in fixed limit, it\'s not that important.

The button is more important than you\'ve possibly imagined.

That honestly sounds more like a mantra than a objective statement.

Correct.

In fixed limit, having the button does not compensate a clear equity disadvantage. Ever.

Then why do you open your range on the button?

Joe Tall wrote:

In fixed limit, having the button does not compensate a clear equity disadvantage. Ever.

Then why do you open your range on the button?

Partly because the button is indeed a clear advantage. Partly because there\'s less players to act behind me and less chance that someone has a dominating hand that will 3-bet. Partly because there\'s a chance to steal the blinds. Sometimes because it gives a better chance to play against a bad player. (Iso-raising against a limper.)

None of this applies to over-limping with 87o in my opinion. Having the button is an advantage there too, but in my opinion not enough to compensate the equity disadvantage it has.

Joe Tall wrote:

Which is it?

In fixed limit, having the button does not compensate a clear equity disadvantage. Ever.

or

Partly because the button is indeed a clear advantage. Partly because there\'s less players to act behind me and less chance that someone has a dominating hand that will 3-bet. Partly because there\'s a chance to steal the blinds. Sometimes because it gives a better chance to play against a bad player. (Iso-raising against a limper.)

They are not in contradiction.

The button is important, but it doesn\'t compensate everything. We\'re talking about where the line should be drawn. I think, or I\'ve been taught, that 87o after three limpers is way below the line. It has a significant equity disadvantage and it has relatively poor implied odds.

jajvirta wrote:

They are not in contradiction.

The button is important, but it doesn\'t compensate everything. We\'re talking about where the line should be drawn. I think, or I\'ve been taught, that 87o after three limpers is way below the line. It has a significant equity disadvantage and it has relatively poor implied odds.

Regardless of the 87o. I was trying to find OffCalls \"line\" and stated that T9o is my normal line and 87o would be my very bottom with great reads on my opponents. When you are playing well you can see everything. I normally reserve this limp for a live game, fwiw. I may have not made that perfectly clear and apologize if it\'s misunderstood.

However, what has come to light in this post is that you may not feel how powerful the button, yes, even in fixed limit hold\'em. Put it this way, if you reserve all your mistakes for the button, you\'ll be playing great poker. Abuse it, IMO.