Oink - 5/10 6 max - 11/14/07 Page 1 of 2
This thread discusses the Content article: Oink - 5/10 6 max - 11/14/07
Hey everyone, this is Oink\'s first guest video for DeucesCracked and we anticipate having him as an infrequent contributor. He will be along in this thread to answer any questions you might have about concepts he discusses, and hands he plays or comments on. If you have any feedback for him regarding ways he can improve his videos, or concepts you would like to see him expand upon in future videos, feel free to share those here.
I\'m personally really thrilled to have Oink contributing guest videos, and teaching us all the art of the Danish LAGTAG :) :)
-DeathDonkey
sweeet. I find myself concurring with oink constantly here and on 2p2. It will be great to see a guy who is one step further on road to high stakes than I am.
I\'m going to watch right now, and I\'m sure I\'ll make commentary later.
who is this \'oink\' character, sounds like a fish to me ;)
hopefully I don\'t get too distracted by your sexy danish accent
Somehow I managed to convince DD and the guys that I had something to contribute... Or something.
No sexy accent unfortunately ;) . Scandinavians dont have that. Italians tho...
Anyways. I also posted this on 2p2. Looking through the video I felt I played pretty well comparing to my own standards. Obviously I am no DD. I am really looking forward to any comments on potential awfull play and leaks.
Oink wrote:
Somehow I managed to convince DD and the guys that I had something to contribute... Or something.
Anyways. I also posted this on 2p2. Looking through the video I felt I played pretty well comparing to my own standards. Obviously I am no DD. I am really looking forward to any comments on potential awfull play and leaks.
For what it\'s worth, I really liked it. I love seeing more of this LAGTAG thingy in action. Or should it be LAGLAG on Oink\'s case? ;-)
I\'m hoping to spend more time with this video and come up with questions, but that\'s always just wishful thinking.
For now, I\'m curious about the T
7
hand. Button opened, SB fold and hero defended. Flop came something like 2
6
A
. You check-raised and the villain folded immediately.
Now, am I right that this isn\'t a default and super-standard play here? You have two over cards to the two lower cards and a backdoor FD and weak backdoor straight draw, which isn\'t hopeless, but your equity against even a super-wide button open range is pretty bad. This is not to say that bluffing this board is a bad play. Rather, I guess it\'s easier boards to get the villain to fold before SD. Of course, most of the villain\'s range that is ahead of you here is combination of hands that contain 8 through K which are probably going to fold so the pure equity against the range isn\'t that much of a concern.
How important are your own possible outs here? In other words, this isn\'t a board that you would outright bluff against a button TAG.
Also, are you going to check-raise with every hand that you are going to continue with. I\'m thinking of Ax hands that might extract more value out of a more passive line, but I\'m not sure what other hands could possibly peel this flop.
Finally, if the villain did call, you would have fired another barrel on any turn card and given up if called, right?
For what it\'s worth, I really liked it. I love seeing more of this LAGTAG thingy in action. Or should it be LAGLAG on Oink\'s case?
TY. Appreciate it
About the T
7
hand
First of all. Your image matters a lot here.
So I know that villain was a TAG and as I remember on the weakish side.
I also know his range is wide. Something like 50-60%
He doesnt know me. And I am aware of that. I recently changed SN and the numbers I have on him are likely mined.
I think all this makes this a fairly easy raise. He is going to fold any hand that missed the board and maybe even pp\'s because he is OOP against an unknown. (remember he is weakish TAG)
The fact that I am unknown to him also implies that I have to check the turn if he calls - since when he calls he will have a pair almost always on this board. If I improve to a pair and he bets river fast I will not call. If he thinks and then bets I will prolly call thinking he has a 6.
My possible outs becomes more important if he is aware of me being a LAGTAG. In that case he might choose to call my flop raise and even see a SD with hands like good Kx and QJs, QTs, JTs, Q9s with bdfd\'s. Stuff like that. (Not seeing a SD with Qx and Jx prolly.)
In that case I can get more value out of my hand when it improves since I will be betting again on the turn and not fold a whole lot if he fires the river.
Another thing is that since I have a few ways to improve it actually sucks a bit when he 3-bets. If I have 63 on AK8 flop and he 3-bets me I prolly have 0% eq. If he 3-bets me in this hand I will give up maybe about 8% eq on average in a 9SB pot when I fold or make a bad call when I call. So the fact that I have outs will enhance my mistake when he 3-bets me.
Now say villain is OTB and a TAG. I will c/r here 100% if I know I am unknown to him. Again, he is simply folding way too many hands not to take a shot here when your image is non-retarded.
When my image is retarded, which it will usually be after 100+ hands with villain I will not take a shot 100%. But still do it once in a while.
I want to add 1 final thing.
When you defend your BB IP against a TAG you can pop so many flops. Any AKx and AQx flop sucks for a very large part of villains range. Two high cards is even better because people tend to peel more when they have two overcards to the middle card. On a AK6 flop they cant have that of course. On these flops IP in a BvB I raise 100% when I have a good image and villain is a TAG
How important are your own possible outs here? In other words, this isn\'t a board that you would outright bluff against a button TAG.
Also, are you going to check-raise with every hand that you are going to continue with. I\'m thinking of Ax hands that might extract more value out of a more passive line, but I\'m not sure what other hands could possibly peel this flop.
If I think I have a profitable bluff c/r I will c/r any 2 cards in my range there. Altho maybe an argument can be made for c/c Ax, 6x, 2x and pps to let him 2nd barrel instead of folding right now.
If I dont think I have a profitable bluff I would peel a hand like T7dd because I would expect him to give me a free river quite a lot.
If I dont expect him to fold a lot and if I dont expect him to hand out free rivers I just c/c any piece of the board and c/r good hands on the turn.
So again. It depends on my image and exactly how I believe the TAG plays
I think it was a great video. I agree with most of your decisions. But I have 2 comments.
In minute 20 you had T3s in the SB, there was one limper, and the big blind was a TAG. You decided to complete and I don\'t like it much. Playing suited crap getting less than 5:1 is OK when you are closing the action, or when the guy remaining to act is passive, but i don\'t think it\'s good with an aggresive player left to act. Then the BB raised and you called again getting 5:1 and closing the action. Too loose again, because someone raising in the BB against two people usually have a strong hand.
In minute 20 too, you had KJo in the button and openraise. TAG SB 3bets you and you cap (i don\'t think it\'s great to cap because you said that he knows you are LAG, but it\'s ok I don\'t mind the cap). But the flop is K44, he donks and you raise. I don\'t like that raise, you are WA/WB and I think that raising gains nothing in this situation. What do you think?
Thanks! And again, great video.
Glad you liked it. And glad you agree with most of my decisions.
ad T3s)
Sethypooh from 2p2 gave me heat for that one as well. To be honest I dont think it matters much either way.
If BB is passive I think its an easy complete. The fact that BB as aggro and the blind structure is 2/5 makes me agree with you a little more.
I do think we agree on what factors to consider when deciding to fold or call. I am not sure of anything but as a default I am expecting the play to be pretty close to neutral EV.
ad KJo)
PF is fine IMO with the dynamics
I think I misplayed flop. Altho with the image I have I think its less of a mistake than against a normal TAG/regular.
I do believe this guys is donking quite a bit and calling down quite a bit. So to a certain extend this is not WA/WB as he will not be folding as much. (altho he did which makes me regret my play)
Great video Oink, I don\'t really have any questions regarding the video the things I was going to ask about have already been metioned in this thread. I hope you get the chance to make some more of these and post them here, I liked the way you explained your decisions in the video.
There is an interesting logical concept in the stealing spots. Oink reasons that against an unknown u can CR the flop more liberally. I thought the opposite was true. That is, since U are unknown opps will call you down more liberally. Therefor u can not steal as much early in a session. This is an empirical question of course. Is it the experience by you guys that stealing early is good? Is this idea true also on 1/2 6max?
Edit: Forgot, I obviously liked the video Oink. Bt why is that Danish english is considered cool, but swedish english retarded. Very unfair.
I think Oink\'s point makes sense when you have somewhat of a read on a guy but he doesn\'t have one on you. As he mentioned, the 5/10ish level is filled with a lot of fairly weak TAGs. They play preflop well but haven\'t had a lot of experience with tough thinking Danish LAG monsters (hehe) so they let you get away with stuff postflop. After showing some hands down though they will pick up on the fact that he is robbing them blind and then he has to go back to his more normal style of choosing spots and value betting them to death.
-DeathDonkey
Oink - great video - I joined back up this month JUST to see what you had to say (don\'t worry, DD et al, you guys rule, too, but I\'ve gotten through most of your stuff).
Keep \'em comin\'!
Some rambling thoughts. Mostly just me thinking out loud. Don\'t feel obliged to comment if the comments are too clueless. :-)
- 08:50: unknown on the button opens, you defend w A8o, flop is KT8r, you check-raise, villain calls the raise, you lead the turn, 2
, which brings a heart draw on the board and you say you expect to be raised on this turn fairly often. Would you call-down on this spot given that no
or Q, J, 9 type of cards didn\'t hit the river? There are a lot of draws on the board and the villain could very well be semi-bluffing. Though in hindsight perhaps not this particular villain.
Also, on the river, brick 4
, you\'re undecided whether you can valuebet it but the discussion comes off short as you begin to timeout.
- on 09:00ish, you open w 77 on the hijack, get 3-bet by a TAG on SB. Flop comes A
9
4
you ponder whether you can profitably call flop and turn and fold on the river UI and check behind if the villain checks. The pot is 8 SB after SB bets, and the reasoning goes that you\'re expecting to pay 1.5BB for showdown that you have a some chance of winning (and that the villain will not be betting the river on a bluff), for a 5.5BB pot. So, assuming something like a 13% 3-betting range for the villain, pair of sevens has around 30% equity here, which seems to justify the semi-call-down. This is somewhat eye-opening, as I would have probably just folded, never giving a second thought for it. Something like pair of tens should be enough for that line, then, right? (Though TT could have been capping hand preflop also.)
- 09:45 You have A
5
on BB and a TAG opens from the button. Flop comes 2
9
K
and you try to decide whether to check-call, check-call, check-fold. You aren\'t going to try to steal on this spot ever w flush draw and potential gut-shots on the board and with ace high, right? But say you had 7
T
(again :-) ), and the board was rainbow, you\'d might go for a pure check-raise steal? (Depending on your image and the villain, of course.)
- 17:34 you defend with A
T
against UTG raise and mistake the situation for a cold call on the villain\'s part and donk the flop of 7
7
J
. What would your play have been if you had check to the preflop raiser? Doesn\'t seem like a board that you can get AK/AQ or pocket pairs to fold, but your equity is decent there, though the preflop raise did come from UTG.
- 32:35 Q8o not good enough to complete in 2/5 blind structure when a bad player has limped and you have an aggressive player on the big blind?
- 36:00 Good discussion on turn decisions when you opened w T9o and the flop came something like 4
8
9
, turn is K
. Now, you said that w, say, 66 you would be more inclined to check behind and and call a river bet, because the K makes him fold large part of the range that he would have had bet the river as a bluff. So it would be the same as 66 if you had Ace high with reasonable kicker there?
Ad A8o)
I would fold to a raise here. Its an unlikely line for villain to call flop and raise brick turn with a straight draw. So its pretty much just picked up fds, and since his peeling range on the flop isnt that wide there isnt a whole lot of those. (I mean he isnt calling the flop with 76hh, 65hh, stuff like that)
About the river. I think I end up checking. A valuebet is targeting AQ and AJ and maybe worse 8x and lower pps. With the amount of broken draws out there I think this is an ok spot to c/c.
Ad 77)
I discussed this hand with efficacy from 2p2 who discussed it with Brassmonkey. We had the same eyeopening experience :). I will start looking to call, call and fold in those spots.
Ad A5o)
I dont think the 29Kfd flop is very good to make a move on as there are so many hands that arent folding untill the river. But I had the same eyeopening experience on this board as with the 77 hand. A5 has very good eq here. The thing is, in this hand villain has a lot of worse hands that will 3 barrel. Whereas in the 77 hand hero can trust villain a lot more when he 3 barrels. I am inclined to start calling down more tho. Dunno.
Ad ATs)
c/c c/c c and decide
Ad Q8o)
Mistake. Dunno why I didnt do it. Yourface punked me as well.
Ad T9o)
yes. 66 and Ax runs fairly close in value on that board.
