Beginner Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

Hi,
how do I play this hand after he 3bets me on the flop?

Villain is a 28/21/2.0/37/51 guy, who seems to be somewhat bad (lost 2 BB/100 in 50k hands in my data on Stars); I did not have any particular reads on him, just the stats;
His 3bet on the Flop (I figured) was likely to mean one of two things: He has got a really weak MH that wants to go to SD (mid-pocket pair) or he has got Jx (KJ or something I guess). With monsters like overpairs, TPTK or a set he would probably just call to keep the fish in and then raise the turn.

I thought I was basically WAWB so I went into calldown mode; it seemed to me that he is the type of guy who would muck a pocket pair against further action, and I save myself the hassle of possibly getting raised on the Turn if I cap.

So what about the River J: should I donk/fold this to prevent weaker MHs like 88,99 to check behind?

Poker Stars $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 62876
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.333 SB) Hero is CO with T T
2 folds, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls

Flop: (9.333 SB) 3 2 J (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, BB calls, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, BB folds, Hero calls

Turn: (8.167 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls

River: (10.167 BB) J (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

I'm not a huge stats guy, but he looks to have 'normal' pf TAG stats, but is not going to SD enough and winning too often at 37/51, yes? (imo, this means he is not bluffing as much post flop.) Stat peeps? Since he is a pretty big loser over a large sample, I would expect him to be pretty bad post flop with these TAGish stats. Although, I don't think that helps us a ton on this hand.


Firstly, BB already called 1 bet on the Flop, so villain has no reason to slowplay. He's jamming for value, imo, with Jx or a PP. (There is a subset of bad players with TAGish stats that will jam all UI overs on a flop like this, so I wouldn't rule out AK/AQ/KQ.)

In regards to your line, I think calling down from his flop 3-bet is standard.

I would never donk/fold this river since you are representing exactly nothing except your exact hand. He can raise you with all Jx, better PP if he's thinking, or bluffs hoping you fold your marginal PP. You will just never know where you are on this board. Now... if there was a FD on the flop and the river brought the FD, I sometimes use the donk/fold line in certain circumstances.

If I have a read that he jams a ton of flops (all dry flops, UI overs, 55-99 here, etc), I've started to donk the Turn on boards like this. I have many reasons for it against this player type and looove it right now.

Once he checks the River, my money is on AK/AQ.

wow, I love LHE.

BG

If I have a read that he jams a ton of flops (all dry flops, UI overs, 55-99 here, etc), I've started to donk the Turn on boards like this. I have many reasons for it against this player type and looove it right now.

If they X behind a lot of turns? I think this is played fine.

In regards to your line, I think calling down from his flop 3-bet is standard.

I would never donk/fold this river since you are representing exactly nothing except your exact hand. He can raise you with all Jx, better PP if he's thinking, or bluffs hoping you fold your marginal PP.

Once he checks the River, my money is on AK/AQ.
BG

Let me explain the donk/fold idea: I proposed it because the guy seems so str8forward that I doubt he is capable of a River Bluffraise; nor is he able to turn his weak made hand into a bluffraise, so I think if THIS GUY raises me, I can safely fold. Remember that this is only 3/6 and villain is one of those multitabling TAG-machines.
Would you still say that under these circumstances donk/fold R with the paired board is no good? I would never donk/fold here against a thinking player.

I would have capped this preflop given this particular scenario. Your equity preflop is good and it allows you to take control of the pot and your opponents response to you post flop should be a little more honest.

As played, I would just call down.

I would have capped this preflop given this particular scenario. Your equity preflop is good and it allows you to take control of the pot and your opponents response to you post flop should be a little more honest.

As played, I would just call down.

a) I thought about it during the hand, and I usually cap 10-10; my reasoning was that I did not want to bloat the pot too much preflop, giving them better odds.#
b) more importantly, I liked my relative position to the PF-aggressor and could, as played, check/raise the field if a favourable flop comes (which it did) or just c/c if the flop came horribly.

a) I thought about it during the hand, and I usually cap 10-10; my reasoning was that I did not want to bloat the pot too much preflop, giving them better odds.#
b) more importantly, I liked my relative position to the PF-aggressor and could, as played, check/raise the field if a favourable flop comes (which it did) or just c/c if the flop came horribly.

My thinking here is that the button should have a fairly wide range given his position and your OPR in the CO, and the BB could have a wide range since he didn't cap, but who knows. In a full ring game I would put BB on JJ and play appropriately, however, in this game he could have hands as weak as 68s. We just don't know. Even if we give both players a reasonable holding we should still have about 40% equity preflop.

I have found that being the aggressor puts me in the drivers seat and forces the other players into tough decisions post flop. Also, your cap OOP MW looks pretty strong. Instead of you check folding when the flop comes scary, your opponents will be the ones not wanting to continue. In other words, we maintain aggression in order to not be bluffed out of the pot.

That said, playing it as you did is certainly reasonable.

I think both plays have some merit, and I am glad that you explained your thought process to me.
So I guess this is a spot for balancing our play :-)

If they X behind a lot of turns? I think this is played fine.

No, he's going to check behind on the River UI or v-bet us if he spikes. Or sometimes take a free card, yes. Either way, I think we are leaving money on the table sometimes on this board (with this read).

If this guy is super reliable on the bigger streets (per alaimisema's comment above), I like donking the Turn here even more, especially since we didn't cap pf.

Let me explain the donk/fold idea: I proposed it because the guy seems so str8forward that I doubt he is capable of a River Bluffraise; nor is he able to turn his weak made hand into a bluffraise, so I think if THIS GUY raises me, I can safely fold. Remember that this is only 3/6 and villain is one of those multitabling TAG-machines.
Would you still say that under these circumstances donk/fold R with the paired board is no good? I would never donk/fold here against a thinking player.

If you have a soul-read that he will not bluff the river, I think donk/folding is okay here. However, if he's tilting or whatever and you donk this river on this board, he could raise you just for the hell of it with almost any hand that got there, including A-high and low PP. (seen it unusually often on this type of board from a bad post-flop opponent.) He's NEVER putting you on a Jack.

Honestly, I rarely donk/fold the river unless the board is scary (usually by completing the FD that was present on the Flop or the river brings a 4-straight) so I can rely on villain's actions, so using this tooooo often would cause me to hate it (I do not want to be donk/folding much of my range). I MUCH prefer donking the turn. I have used this a ton against guys that jam the flop light and I think it's grrrrrreat! (for many reasons) Against a thinking, decent opponent, donking the Turn here isn't as awesome (because he will play a lot better vs it), but this guy is a solid loser in the game.

Thanks for your analysis, BG; by the way, your guess about his holding was not quite correct: he held 44.
I think his Flop 3bet is just atrocious, because my c/r is rarely ever a bluff on this board texture 3handed; I don't have many deuces and 3s in my CO range; checkraising the field against the 3better indicates a lot of strength, I am not sure I'd play A2 or A3 this way; so I really hate his play.

fwiw, imo, 44 is basically the same as AK on this board (worse, really, since he only has 2 outs instead of 6 most of the time), so I would consider him the type to use this line with lone overs. When the Turn hits, I'm sure he's thinking his play was expert. lol. Now we know where his
-2BB/100 comes in.



I just want to reiterate that I'm only donking this turn against a bad post-flop player.

I just want to reiterate that I'm only donking this turn against a bad post-flop player.

Why not CR the turn if we know he's not 3betting for a free card (which tags almost never do)? Folding if he 3bets turn.

note how dry this board is, this guy has an AF of 2.0 so he's bluffing sometimes I'll bet. But he's picking his spots carefully. 32J puts him on strong ahighs, a jack, or a PP IMO.

TAGs that jam the flop with overs will take a free river or free SD. Donking the Turn will get them to spazz RAISE YOUR DONK!!! a lot and get them to fire a retarded river bet with A-high so many times, it's gross.

I make so much more money donking here it's ridiculous.

plus, in-session meta is awesome.

I love this thread, so many valuable things to be learned about TAG-exploiting :-)

I think the average bad TAG who 3bets the Flop with this type of hand(range) will bet the Turn most of the time, then take his free SD.