Beginner Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

It's one thing to cap lightly with AT+ because someone has been 3betting light. But what hands are you ahead of that he's 3betting? I think ghkzy was 3betting light but he wasn't getting so out of line that Q high is a monster against him.

I think it's fine to attack with a hand like this. You don't have to just sit there and take it until you have AT+/88+. I dont think it's fine to do when you've been 3bet utg.

Ghkzy, I had the note that said: "semimainiacal, very aggressive" which I must have made a few days earlier. Its language I use in my notes for players that that don't understand aggression and relative hand-strength well. They do things like bloat and fold, and/or spew when faced with aggression.

I think you have big leaks esp in your pre-flop play (actually I think all but LQ from the game do). You play a very aggro pf but I don't think you have the post flop game to back it up in a game with decent players.

For instance in the QJs vs KTo hand. You can't just look at your hand and your position. You need to consider who I am, and what my UTG open range is before you even start considering those things. 3-betting KTo OTB vs my CO open in this game is at best thin IMO, vs my UTG open its just silly.

Then you need to consider my perception of you. I felt that you were entering too many pots with cheese, you didn't really play a subtle positinal game, and you were straight forward post flop, so from my perspective I think its a pretty easy decision to jam your BTN 3-bet. Mostly for FE with a hand that has resonable equity vs your 3-bet range, blockers to your stronger hands, and low SDvalue.

On a general note, think about how many times you ended up in bloated pots, with marginal (dominated!) hands OOP vs imaginative players (like LQ) that likely have an edge on you post flop.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is to think you would be better off tightening up to more TAGy stats pf and work on your post flop game.

This is a bit rambly but you can hit me up on skype if you want to discuss more or specific situations.

Also, I'm offended that Obeadonkey changed my cool laggy orange light to a dorky TAG-red.

4:33
Which AK
LQ: AJ

Which opens utg, LQ 3bets AJs otb. I really don't like the slowplay on the KQxr texture from which. You need to make TT-77 type hands put their money in immediately so that they feel tied to the pot on the big streets, because a lot of people will be very concerned about being bluffed at on this board. If you c/r the turn, he's b/f almost his entire range that you want value from.

6:42
LQ A8s bb
Tea: T9o btn

I really don't like the payoff here tea when he's c/r'd flop and bet every street on AJT74. Even if he's c/r all gutshots and barrelling off, it's a pretty thin call. I wouldn't expect him to keep firing with 87 or 97 on the river though, and probably not with T8 either, which makes this a fold imo, minus a read on barrelling


9:00
ghkzy c/c Q6hh on Jc9h5h vs LQ's utg open. LQ's been super active and this is a board that can be difficult to play. I don't hate the call, but then a 9 comes, I would c/r this card every time and barrel the river. You put KQ/KT and weaker A's like AT/A8 in tough spots, as well as 88-66, and with your equity what it isn, you won't need to steal too many pots to make it worth the effort. This is a perfect opportunity to add confusion to your turn c/r range.

I actually don't mind the LQ river bet, just beause G's hand looks a lot more like a-high than any pair. Betting and being shown 77 here isn't that big a deal, imo, esp considering he's starting to try to run over the table. If you're going to have to sd 65s from utg, might as well let them know you're betting down bottom pair too.

If someone could dig up and post the stats of each player (here or in the other thread), that would be nice.

16:53
Xylo 99 in bb
Ghkzy ATs in co

Xylo, if your read on G is such that this flop is a c/r, I think you should be 3betting him out of the BB with 99. It's a far more effective way of pushing your edge against him, such as it is.

G, I'm not sure what your plan was, but this is a flop 3 for me all day. Too many cards come that will beat more or at least cause Xy (or other opponents) to either be b/f turn if I raise, or c/c, denying me with raise entirely. There's nothing wrong with being laggy, but you've got to translate that game postflop more, so that you're taking advantage of the adjustments people make to you and at the same time fighting for more of the pots that your looser pf play is building.


24:06
Which JTo in BB
Tea KK utg

Really hate this decision to attack a Qs6s3d flop vs an utg raiser. There may not be a single hand he holds that won't call flop and turn, at the least, on this texture. It's so easy to put you on a draw here on a relatively unconnected board where you just won't have many pairs. Attacking utgs is going to be a bad idea in this game anyhow, I'd imagine.

On the turn K, I really think you should consider a c/c or maybe a c/r, depending on your perception of his range. I don't have stats, but tea has seemed pretty solid here. If you think he will b/f 77, that's not bad. If not, I think the K is a tough card for you to rep and overall, you're not going to get him off a hand until the river, if at all. so by betting, you're committed to a two-barrel bluff anyhow. C/c is probably better at this point though, save the c/r for when you have a crystalline image and an strong read on your opponent.

I go back and forth on waiting for the turn if I'm tea, but with the Ks it's tough to make too many mistakes here I guess. I might still lean towards jamming the flop, but I get why you don't.


27:00
Xylo T6s in sb
Which 76s in bb

I 3bet 76s here against solid opponents all day. Their tendency is to open too widely and my 3bet allows me to rep a much wider variety of boards. With a good tough opponent on your right, 3betting super wide from BB should be the norm, 76s has to be in there.

Ghkzy, I had the note that said: "semimainiacal, very aggressive" which I must have made a few days earlier. Its language I use in my notes for players that that don't understand aggression and relative hand-strength well. They do things like bloat and fold, and/or spew when faced with aggression.

I think you have big leaks esp in your pre-flop play (actually I think all but LQ from the game do). You play a very aggro pf but I don't think you have the post flop game to back it up in a game with decent players.

For instance in the QJs vs KTo hand. You can't just look at your hand and your position. You need to consider who I am, and what my UTG open range is before you even start considering those things. 3-betting KTo OTB vs my CO open in this game is at best thin IMO, vs my UTG open its just silly.

Then you need to consider my perception of you. I felt that you were entering too many pots with cheese, you didn't really play a subtle positinal game, and you were straight forward post flop, so from my perspective I think its a pretty easy decision to jam your BTN 3-bet. Mostly for FE with a hand that has resonable equity vs your 3-bet range, blockers to your stronger hands, and low SDvalue.

On a general note, think about how many times you ended up in bloated pots, with marginal (dominated!) hands OOP vs imaginative players (like LQ) that likely have an edge on you post flop.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is to think you would be better off tightening up to more TAGy stats pf and work on your post flop game.

This is a bit rambly but you can hit me up on skype if you want to discuss more or specific situations.

You are right about my post flop game. It's really, really bad, really too straightforward, (BTW i don't understand subtle positional game?) I thought about it most of the time but i don't know where to start. Any ideas or videos?

I feel i do really spew when i'm face with aggression against those better players, i think it tilts me when my opponents 3bet me light 3 4 times in a row PF, whether it's in position or OOP for the past few games. Did tighten up against them, but still of no use.

My PT3 stats now are like 30/20/1.39 97K hands (aggression still climbing, used to be lower) My friend told me the stats are ok, but have to work on my aggression. (he's a winning player at least at mid or high stakes HU LHE, i forgot) I was fine for the first 46K+ hands, but after that it went up and down and further down, i don't know what happen to me after the 46K+ hands.

Now i'm low on morale about my game when i just saw the graph dropped to a further low of -$90+.

edit: my mic is not working. would really love to discuss, but i always have a problem explaining things like this.

16:53
Xylo 99 in bb
Ghkzy ATs in co

Xylo, if your read on G is such that this flop is a c/r, I think you should be 3betting him out of the BB with 99. It's a far more effective way of pushing your edge against him, such as it is.

G, I'm not sure what your plan was, but this is a flop 3 for me all day. Too many cards come that will beat more or at least cause Xy (or other opponents) to either be b/f turn if I raise, or c/c, denying me with raise entirely. There's nothing wrong with being laggy, but you've got to translate that game postflop more, so that you're taking advantage of the adjustments people make to you and at the same time fighting for more of the pots that your looser pf play is building.

The plan was to C/R him at turn (that's how i usually play), but the turn comes a 9c, so i just call. thought he might C/R the flop 2 FD.
Don't know where to start to work my postflop game. any suggestions?

43:02

G opens ATo in mp, LQ 3! JTo in CO, which cold caps AQs in BB

I really hate the 3bet. Despite Xyl's notes, I don't think G has been terribly out of line preflop and JTo needs too much flop help. Suited really does help a lot with this type of play, though maybe LQ feels he can completely run g over, and that seems possible. He made a fair number of river folds in suspicious spots.

G's pf fold seems really good here, but I wonder what others think. From utg, I think it's perfect. From mp, it's a little closer. From CO, i would never fold.

I like the flop raise on 974r from LQ for the free card. I think it's a great spot to free card because too many people wait for the turn here, in my experience. I do not like which's river bet when the board comes 5/6. I don't think he's ever calling, so it's very much a check and decide spot.


43:36
LQ opens QJo in mp, Tea calls in BB w/ AQo

I 3bet loose aggressives here preflop with AQo in the BB. Our hand definitely likes having the lead postflop, and LQ has shown a willingness to check turns, which can make life uncomfortable for us. I think the flop should be a c/r semibluff on JT7tt by AQo here and I'd bet all 3 streets, unless the turn or river were a 8 or 9.


46:45
Which opens JdTh, tea 3bets QcJc

which peels Ad9x2d, calls turn 4d and tea c/f river 9x.

This whole hand is very odd to me and it feels like a lot of money is left on the table. I think first, Which's peel is fairly bad. bd fd/bd sd, but still I think you'd prefer to raise or fold flop. On the turn 4d, I think this is a definite raise if you're going to proceed. You've got to rep something here, otherwise tea is going to play close to perfect against you, and this is not an easy board to play for a reasonably wide tag 3betting range. You'll have a more profitable river bet.

Tea, I think this is a river you should barrel. If he shows down 66 with a diamond, so be it, you built quite a pot here though, and really, wtf else is he going to do but bet his entire range on the river. I think you need to prevent that and protect your pot.

50:30
Aus, great river VB with TT on KQxxQ!

52:40
Xylo opens 65s in co, which 3bets KQo otb, Xylo caps and we see a flop of K98r and a turn T that puts out a heart draw.

Which, you need to put a raise in here somewhere. I know it sucks to be 3bet, but the reality is that he only has 12 combos of AA, 8 combos of AK and 6 combos of TT, while he still has 12 of QQ and JJ and AQ, plus potentially some AJ. All of those hands are now tied to the pot and will have to pay off two on the turn plus one on the river. I would plan on calling this flop with the intention of raising a lot of turns and the T is a great one for it.


56:11
G, I think your problem is that you just haven't sorted out how to 3bet people and why. Stox book is quite useful on this point, arguing that you simply need 50% equity against his range to 3bet preflop. Tea opens the CO here and you fold A9s otb. This should be an auto 3bet. It might help you to sit down with an excel sheet and Equilabs or Stove and just give your opponent top 15%, top 20%, top 25%, etc all the way up to 55 or 60% and then take individual hands and run their equity against that range. I think you'll be surprised by the results. To translate that to play, simply pay a lot of attention to a player's raise-first-in stat (avail in HM now).

I think you'll find yourself tightening up as a 3bettor overall, but you'll be paying more attention to things like ranges and position, which is going to improve you a whole lot really fast.



This was pretty cool. A lot of fun to go over the hands, hope these comments help, or are at least interesting.

And LQ, try to flop better next time. Jaysus.

Don't know where to start to work my postflop game. any suggestions?

I would start by straightening out your preflop play, tbh. A lot of complications come simply from having the wrong hand against the wrong guy at the wrong time.

I should know, I spent a lot of last year breaking even because i was mindlessly 3betting, rather than 3betting for a purpose. I would start there, and while you're working on your game, just play simply postflop. Don't do anything too fancy or unnecessary. Straightforward in LHE wins the money 90% of the time postflop. The Dojo series was an enormous help to me in this regard.

I think you're over valuing a free river. You have 16% equity against a range of 88+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+. If we assume that villain bet/calls his entire range and gives you a free card 100% of the time, you're putting in 2 SBs to win 8.5 SBs so you actually need about 20% equity here. And that's assuming you don't have to put in 2 BBs later by AK, AJ, KQ, JJ+ when you do hit a pair and can't fold.

I have never really thought about equity before. Never use pokerstove before and my math is really bad to work all these out when i'm on the table.

It's pretty standard to semi-bluff with a flush draw and open ended straight draw (except for A high flush draws which are likely to be the best hand anyway on the flop). It's one a matter of being able to win a pot unimproved and two a way to balance your play on the flop. If this table realized you were playing draws like this then they can very easily barrel you off best hands when you play passively and comfortably fold when you raise.

Whether or not you barrel the turn and river unimproved is a big question that has no quick answer. It depends on your opponent, the fold equity you think you have against him, and the exact cards that come on the board.

i was too afraid to semi bluff any kind of draws. My postflop play is really a big problem.

Guess you are right that he can completely run over me. i have no idea how to deal with players like LQ.

are you talking about Winning In Tough Hold'em Games or?

How about the omakase LHE? i just finish shouldn't fold recently ( i really have to re-watch it)

Guess you are right that he can completely run over me. i have no idea how to deal with players like LQ.

are you talking about Winning In Tough Hold'em Games or?

How about the omakase LHE? i just finish shouldn't fold recently ( i really have to re-watch it)

dealing with someone like me in a lot of situations would be to find a better table, haha. but that really is the truth.
if the tabel is just too good to leave getting to showdown more vs me is probably good and putting in more action with your semibluffing opportunities is probably appropriate as well.

30/20 is a very reasonable style for soft SS LHE games, IMO. Might want a slightly higher PFR, but it's not bad since you'll be defending lots of BB's. That said, Caus is pretty much right on that if your postflop play isn't solid, you need to tighten up pre. You will find yourself in much easier postflop situations this way, with strong hands less likely to be dominated. Once you get postflop sorted, you'll want to loosen back up to 30-35ish VPIP to extract maximum value from these games.

Relentless Assault is a great series where DD plays in some tough games and is forced to make some good postflop decisions as a result. The other way to get much better at postflop play is to play a lot of HUHU. You will play so many hands and be put into so many marginal spots, you will get much better much quickly. Before I started playing HUHU, I was relying way too heavily on the standard TAGfish lines - Bet flop, fire second barrel, check back river or bet flop, value check turn call river. .

Just don't play cash below 2/4 - the rake will eat you alive. Play HUSNGs if you're not currently playing 2/4 or higher. Also, remember - no money heasup, everybody's solid.

The Dojo series was an enormous help to me in this regard.

I thought we discussed just about every single play going by the time it was done

Probably saw and did every single play too.